A J, small blind, 40-80

[dcarlc]

40-80 at the Commerce. My table image is Tag. 9 handed game. The hand is folded to the cutoff who raises(He is relatively tight but aggressive player and is no idiot). Button folds, I have Ace Jack off suit in small blind and 3 bet, cutoff caps.

Flop comes Jack, Jack, Six, 2hearts

I check, cutoff bets, I call.

Turn is 8 hearts.

I check, cutoff checks.

River is blank.

I bet, cutoff calls.

Don't usually play this bad I hope.

P.S. First post, sorry if it's a mess.

[steveyz]

Bet the flop or check raise the flop, definitely lead the turn. You don't want to give a big heart a free one, unless perhaps if you have Ah.

[dcarlc]

Did not have the heart.

[TStoneMBD]

dont beat yourself up over this hand, you took a standard line out of several lines you could have chosen and it didnt pay off for you.

[Nate tha' Great]

Yeah, I misplayed a hand in almost exactly the same fashion tonight.

I think you pretty much have to check-raise the flop. The turn is going to get checked behind a lot regardless of the card that comes off, and if he does bet it, I think he's going to fold if you raise.

You could also just bet out on the flop but a good player will just start calling down from there especially if he's seen a lot of opponents who like to fastplay big trips. I think AQo or something will still call down a lot if you check-raise the flop, but at least you get the extra bet in to start with.

But mostly, whatever plan you adopt, it shouldn't involve checking the turn to him.

[TStoneMBD]

nate do you say this turn shouldnt be checked because the heart fell? would you have checked this turn if it didnt? obviously risking a free card is a bad idea but arent you giving away the strength of your hand by betting the turn? wont villain bet this turn over 50% of the time making a checkraise attempt profitable? if you bet the turn then do you valuebet the river or induce a bluff? if you always lead out after a flush card falls wont a perceptive villain realize that you will never have a pair in this situation and will therefore valuebet the turn with even as little as ace high?

i dont like taking a check-call, bet line when i was setting up a turn checkraise and a flush card fell. maybe this is a leak?

[I.Rowboat]

Personally, I like leading at the flop here, because after three betting before the flop, a flop bet would best represent either a pair or perhaps a big heart draw. You also give the other player a chance to raise on the flop or turn and try to take the pot away from you. He capped before the flop, so I would presume continued action if you lead at the flop.

Because you have a TAG image, and checking and calling seems out of character, and would set off alarm bells in me if I were the other player. I would think you'd want to try to sell the idea that you have a medium pair, 99-QQ, and try to let him hang himself with a bigger pair.

Just my .02 cents...

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
nate do you say this turn shouldnt be checked because the heart fell? would you have checked this turn if it didnt? obviously risking a free card is a bad idea but arent you giving away the strength of your hand by betting the turn? wont villain bet this turn over 50% of the time making a checkraise attempt profitable? if you bet the turn then do you valuebet the river or induce a bluff? if you always lead out after a flush card falls wont a perceptive villain realize that you will never have a pair in this situation and will therefore valuebet the turn with even as little as ace high?

i dont like taking a check-call, bet line when i was setting up a turn checkraise and a flush card fell. maybe this is a leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that I'm worried about giving up a free card so much but rather that I think the turn check-raise flags your hand too much on this board, especially if your table image is tight. If I have say AKo ... I'm going to check behind on the turn pretty often here and call a river bet. If I have KQo, I'm going to check behind and probably give up on the river unless I improve.

I'm generally a big flop check-raiser with everything from ace high to flopped quads because I think it tends to conceal your hand strength a little bit better and keep the opponent on his heels ... I think some hands that would fold to a turn check-raise will call down a flop check-raise (something like 88), and some hands that will call down a turn check-raise will play back at a flop check-raise.

[TStoneMBD]

nate, if youre holding Ax with a heart, do you bet the turn? do you think villain will bet the turn with one of these hands 51% of the time? will villain always check the turn here with Axo and call a river bet with A high? will villain ever call a lead on the turn with Axo and call on the river?

to me it seems that under the above considerations which are directed against your arguement, youd make more money going for a turn checkraise.

i dont blame you at all for checkraising this flop, as i would often play it fast on the flop as well, but if you decide to just smooth the flop, is leading the turn really better than checkraising?

"It's not that I'm worried about giving up a free card so much but rather that I think the turn check-raise flags your hand too much on this board, especially if your table image is tight. If I have say AKo ... I'm going to check behind on the turn pretty often here and call a river bet. If I have KQo, I'm going to check behind and probably give up on the river unless I improve."

i dont see how AKo could call your lead on the turn and lead on the river. by leading you gain 0 bets against this hand, but if you check the turn and bet the river you gain 1 bet.

you gain 0 bets from KQo in either instance.

you give both of these hands the opportunity to bluff the turn.

why would you bring up AKo and KQo in your reasoning for betting the turn, when they are clearly the reason for why you should check the turn?

[BradL]

I bet the flop, it certainly doesnt mean I have the jack.

-Brad

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
nate, if youre holding Ax with a heart, do you bet the turn? do you think villain will bet the turn with one of these hands 51% of the time? will villain always check the turn here with Axo and call a river bet with A high? will villain ever call a lead on the turn with Axo and call on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd usually check the turn with the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif against a tough opponent. A check-raise is arguably even more costly then since you have to pay it off.

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do you think villain will bet the turn with one of these hands 51% of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd assume that an unknown player would bet it a little bit more often than I would, but I still think a check is fairly likely.

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will villain always check the turn here with Axo and call a river bet with A high?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a blind-stealing situation I'd be inclined to show ace-high down, especially with a good kicker. But I don't want to have to withstand excess action in order to do it.

That's the key to your opponent's state of mind here. The flop check-raise makes him feel like he's calling one bet at a time to see a showdown, which he'll usually oblige you and do. The turn check-raise makes him feel as though he needs to call two big bets at once. I know it sounds weird - it's actually more expensive to call a flop check-raise down by a small bet - but that's the psycholgy that I think is in place here. The flop check-raise is more likely to be a semi-bluff, and the villian has more cards left to see that might improve his hand, so it does more to tie him to the pot.


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will villain ever call a lead on the turn with Axo and call on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

He probably shouldn't but the stop-n-go can confuse people.

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i dont blame you at all for checkraising this flop, as i would often play it fast on the flop as well, but if you decide to just smooth the flop, is leading the turn really better than checkraising?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, we're ageeed that check call flop, bet turn is a pretty awful line, probably the very worst of the five or six that you could conceivably take.

I guess the point isn't that you should be worried about checking the turn to him so much but you should take some sort of aggressive action on the flop, either checkraising or bet-3betting or betting and calling a raise and *then* check-raising the turn.

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why would you bring up AKo and KQo in your reasoning for betting the turn, when they are clearly the reason for why you should check the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I'm articulating well enough. I think AKo is often calling the turn *if* you take an appropriately aggressive action on the flop, unless another flush card comes off and he doesn't have one in which case he'll probably give up. I don't think AKo calls or bets nearly as often if you check-call the flop.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]


I think you pretty much have to check-raise the flop. The turn is going to get checked behind a lot regardless of the card that comes off, and if he does bet it, I think he's going to fold if you raise.

You could also just bet out on the flop but a good player will just start calling down from there especially if he's seen a lot of opponents who like to fastplay big trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a small stakes game from the other day, an unknown openraised the Button, I three-bet with KTo, the BB folded, and the Button called. The flop came TT7r, and I just bet out on every street, and the Button called me down. I posted somewhat facetiously about feeling "unsatisfied" with being unable to find a checkraise somewhere, but most everyone who responded said straight-forward betting was fine.

Consequently, would the preferred action in this 40-80 hand have been to simply play fast if the Button had not capped preflop?

[hogger]

I don't think I'm articulating well enough. I think AKo is often calling the turn *if* you take an appropriately aggressive action on the flop, unless another flush card comes off and he doesn't have one in which case he'll probably give up. I don't think AKo calls or bets nearly as often if you check-call the flop.

This is great advice, I know my AK is not betting turn most of the time against TAG in this situation

[goofball]

calling the flop and raising the turn is a fine way to represent trips here, not a good way to play it when you have it. I'm with everyone else, c/r the flop and keep leading. Give the man a chance to not believe you and overplay his hand.