PP $25NL gut shot straight flush draw on the flop in the CO. Push?

[rikz]

I am a first time poster. I have played B&M poker once a week for about 4 months, but recently found myself in a losing streak. So, I decided to hit my books, buy Poker Tracker, and play more hands at lower limits on line to find leaks in my game. I also started reading this 2+2 forum.

In just my first 1000 hands using Poker Tracker, I immediately discovered that I was much looser than I thought I was. So, since then I've tighted up considerably. I also found a number of other leaks that I am in the process of trying to plug.

The other night playing PP $25NL, I found myself with low suited connectors in the cutoff position. After two limpers to me, I limped in as well. The Button raised to $3 and both early position limpers called. I called.

I flopped a gut shot straight and flush draw. I thought, "I've go 9 outs to a flush and 4 to a straight... My likely opponents have AK TPTK or, if they're lucky, a set. That makes me about a 52% chance to beat any top pair, and slightly less likely to win against two pair or a set since one of my spade outs might give an opponent a full house."

So, when the first two players limped to me after the flop, I pushed.

Was that a good play?

Or, in the words of one of my fellow players in the chat box, "That was the stupidest thing I've ever seen!"?

Thank you.

Here is the hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 ($24.5)
MP2 ($58.5)
Hero ($40.2)
Button ($35.55)
SB ($40.1)
BB ($23.35)
UTG ($8.75)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls $2.50, MP1 calls $2.50, Hero calls $2.50.

Flop: ($12.75) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $37.20 (All-In).

AlbertMoulton

[istewart]

I don't like playing suited connectors out of position against a PFR, especially ones these low. However, this is probably push worthy. Anything seems to commit you. Maybe C/R the button AI?

[SoCalPat]

You'll probably get more out of C/R'ing the button than you would by pushing here. And since you're still drawing, there's no need to push the issue here -- although you wouldn't mind if you took it down right here.

That said, it's hard to imagine anyone folding a legit holding here, because no one would push here with a monster.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Well, i wouldnt say stupidest thing ive ever seen, but it is not a good play. First of all, that is a fold preflop. You are out of position with respect to the preflop raiser and your stacks aren't that deep. I would fold suited connectors to a raise from behind me unless stacks were really deep. Second of all, if I were going to play this hand, I would most likely raise it. You only have two limpers in front of you so there aren't great implied odds here and you can hopefully by the button with a raise. Even when you don't hit your hand/draw on the flop you will often be able to buy the pot if you don't just scoop it all preflop. This will also make your raises a lot harder to read since they aren't always high cards.

Then, post flop, this pot is pretty big. You would love to be able to draw cheaply. If the preflop raiser has a hand like AQ here, he is going to be pretty unlikely to put in a bet against such a big field. There is a pretty good chance you will draw for free. If he does bet, his bet may very well be small in relation to the pot. If it is, you can see how the people in front of you react. Let's say there is a call and then a check/raise in front of you. Time to muck. Let's say instead there are two folds. Now a push might not be such a bad move. His weak bet with the obvious draws on board would indicate a weak hand so he would be unlikely to call you, there would be some more money in the pot for you to win from his bet, you wouldn't be overbetting the pot so much, and even if he calls you would have a decent number of outs.

So in summary I dont like your open push there at all.

[PoBoy321]

I definitely don't think that this is a good play. The button could easily have AK here and it's doubtful that he would fold to the push. Betting $10-$12 would have just as much fold equity and you aren't completely committing yourself (and if you get overcalls from UTG and MP1, this really helps your pot odds.

[Zaxenexaz]

[ QUOTE ]

I flopped a gut shot straight and flush draw. I thought, "I've go 9 outs to a flush and 4 to a straight...

[/ QUOTE ]

You counted the 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif twice.

[maranello11]

I like a 3/4 pot size bet or a little smaller here. That way if he has a set or A K he can put you on a weaker K so it looks like you are not on a draw. Then when it hits you can check or still bet aggressive to trap. Pushing all-in I feel either says your are bluffing or hit a set. Like to see how it worked out

[rikz]

I did count the 6s twice, didn't I. In a best case scenario, then I was only about 48% to hit an out. Thank you.

Based on these responses, it seems that I was out of position versus the raiser, had less than 50% to hit my outs, and I might have been able to take a free card by checking. If the button made a small raise that no one called, I could have semi-bluff check raised against the button with a smaller than all-in raise. Or, I could have taken a smaller stab at the pot with the same folding equity, but less risk to my stack if I got a caller. All in all, I played this badly.

After my push, the next two players folded, but the next to act called. The turn was a Ah. The river was a 7d. I lost to QcKh (two pair, kings and sevens).

Thanks to everyone for your input.

Albert Moulton

[Scorpion]

Are you from New Hampshire?

[tbach24]

Twice fold pre-flop. &lt;100xBB is not enough to be playing low SC's IMO. Betting all-in will blow off flush draws, but it invites in a (stupidly) slow-played set. I would take the free card here, and then if someone else has a flush draw as well, you'll be able to identify it and give it up.

Edit- didn't notice you were OOP to the raiser, then you definetly muck. Also, I think that you should check/call (with pot odds of course).

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like playing suited connectors out of position against a PFR, especially ones these low.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually in this case, hero has the best relative position with regards to the PF raiser. In most cases, the flop will get checked to hero, who can then check to the raiser, who will bet. Then hero gets to see how the other players will react before deciding what to do.

To the OP. I'd fold pre-flop with this hand, but given you called, I'd push the flop here too. You have a lot of folding equity and, as you pointed out, are in pretty good shape if someone calls.

[rikz]

I have a family history in that area that went back a long way. But no, I'm not from NH. NJ originally, and CA now.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Instead of open pushing in front of PFR, I think it is definitely a better move to check/raise all-in. Not that that is a good move, either, but I think it dominates (in a game theoretic sense) just pushing it all in first.