Going for the gold

[wickedgoodtrader]

I'm 23 and have been a successful poker player for about 4 years now. I play in the winter and run a lawn biz in the summer. I recently started trading about 4 months ago. I got tired of playing cards.. just seemed like a constant grind that I never see myself gettin rich at. I'd average about $2500 a month profit but after my morgage payment and other expenses, I wasn't making as much as I'd like. I have all the goods now.. insider purchase alerts, live newsires, and the advanced anylyzer from ameritrade. I put $3500 into the account and now have 8k. Apparently the government has restrictions on what a daytrader can do if they have less then 25k in their account (long explaniation, but they'll lock up your margin and shorting ability). Well I don't know how they say most daytraders lose, but I see ridiculous returns on stocks that i've missed. Make a long story short.. I'm going to get me a 40k home equity loan tomorrow and im going for the gold! Plannin on making 100k minimum the first year.

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
I recently started trading about 4 months ago. I'm going to get me a 40k home equity loan tomorrow and im going for the gold! Plannin on making 100k minimum the first year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yikes! I hope you are kidding. If not, I hope you reconsider. If this is what you want to do, take some time and plan it right. But definitely give it more than four months before you mortgage the house. That is 80-85 trading days at most.

[midas]

A few comments on your upcoming venture:

1. People trade way differently with FU money than with a larger bankroll that could have serious implications to your lifestyle if lost. It like playing craps and tossing a buck on a hardways bet - who cares if you lose it.

2. Now that you have all that "sophisticated" stock information at your disposal - you have 10% of the information that an average Wall Street trader has at their fingertips.

3. In general, I think day traders over-exaggerate their results (similar to poker players). Most Wall Street traders would kill for a 25% return every year.

Take your 40K and invest in some new lawn mowers or a business that you can use your skills in the winter.

[wickedgoodtrader]

So what else would a wall street trader have on top of me? I also see 25% return a year way below what is possible. With the live streaming news, there are an average of 3 decent stories a day on otcbb stocks. Out of those 3.. 2 seem to be hype, where the 3rd one moves the stock 100-200% for the day. The hype stocks average a small gain or loss up to 30%. I compare it to poker, bet 1k at 3k and you only need to win 1 in three times. The odds on the stocks are better, bet 4k and stand to win 4k-8k once and lose 1200 twice. Just a couple stocks that have run like this in the last couple weeks after the press release.. bvle went from .50 to $1.40. Alti went from something like 2.25-5.00. And today, Sfxc went from .055 to .18. All had nice volume so low volume isn't a factor.

[Paluka]

I don't understand where you think you are getting your edge.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 23 and have been a successful poker player for about 4 years now...Plannin on making 100k minimum the first year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to re-evaluate your poker situation if you have been playing seriously for 4 years now and cannot make 100k a year doing it.

[wickedgoodtrader]

I don't know of many people who make 100k a year playin cards, but those that do are probably puttin in a ton of hours. Poker becomes there life, and unless they win a big tourny, 100k will be the max they will average. With trading your profits seem unlimitless.. as your bankroll increases so do your possible profits. You could have 100 mil but your not going to find a 1mil-2mil limit holdem game, that will allow you to keep increasing your bankroll on an exponetial basis.

[RocketManJames]

4 months? You've never seen a real down market yet then... all you've seen is stocks move higher and higher.

I hope you are kidding.

-RMJ

[wickedgoodtrader]

I've been on the sideline of the markte for a few years. The last time I was in it was back in the IPO craze where I turned 2k into 30k in a few of months. I had a few online accounts and was gettin distributed 100-300 shares of most of the ipos. I saw the dreamworld where I'd pay $12 a share and the thing would open trading at $90. Luckily I was one of the few that would sell at these prices. Then I proceeded to watch the market fall and put these companies out of business or under $1 a share. (Ebay being the only exception). So I'm not exactly new to the market. Just fairly new to having money in it again.

[RocketManJames]

[ QUOTE ]
The last time I was in it was back in the IPO craze where I turned 2k into 30k in a few of months. I had a few online accounts and was gettin distributed 100-300 shares of most of the ipos.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting...

1) As a small-time investor ($30K) you were able to get IPO shares? In today's climate, where IPOs were not nearly as hot, you often need 50K to get in on uninteresting IPOs, and 100K or more to get in on better.

2) If you flipped your IPO shares, then you are much less likely to get future IPO shares...

3) In short, yes, I'm calling BS.

But, whatever, it's your money. Go and mortgage the house, and make a killing. Go for the gold. Good luck.

-RMJ

[wickedgoodtrader]

Yes you are right about how IPO's usually work, but it's not how they worked back in the IPO craze. The online trading companies were trying to get more of a customer base, so they were handing out shares on a first come first serve basis when they posted the IPO was available. This was like an incentive program to get customers. It didn't matter how much money you had.. just needed enough to buy 100 shares. Each account was restricted to 100 shares. So I signed up 2 accounts on Etrade and 2 accounts on Wit Capital. This way I could get up to 400 shares. Just used my Dads name on the 2nd account. They did say that if you flipped your shares you were less likely to get future shares but they didn't seem to apply it. I was young then, still in highschool so I didn't capitalize on it like I should have. I knew of guys that had 10+ accounts and were making BIG money gettin 1,000 shares of Ipo's. So the story is not BS I can assure you that.

[wickedgoodtrader]

Just a note on top of my previous message. The Ipo's would be posted sometime between 4 and 6pm.. if there was even one at all. You would literally have to sit on the ipo page and click refresh every 10 seconds to see if it was updated with the posting to assure you were one of the first ones in. There were so many people doing this there were a few times if you waited 20 seconds too long you wouldn't get any shares because they were already spoken for.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know of many people who make 100k a year playin cards, but those that do are probably puttin in a ton of hours. Poker becomes there life, and unless they win a big tourny, 100k will be the max they will average.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you play online or live? Successful online poker players make $150+ an hour. They could make $100k a year playing less than 20 hours a week.

[wickedgoodtrader]

[ QUOTE ]

Do you play online or live? Successful online poker players make $150+ an hour. They could make $100k a year playing less than 20 hours a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

$150/hour eh? I play online and can't think of many games someone could average $150/hour at. There's some higher stakes holdem, 100-200 limit and some 10/20 nl 25/50nl.. but there seem to be very few players playin the higher games.. usually only 5 at the most which most of them are most likely pros so the make has to be figured less since there not playin fish. The majority of players seem to play 15/30 through 30/60 and I just don't find it possible to make 150/hour playing those games. So what games are the "successful" online players playin to make $150/hour?

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
The majority of players seem to play 15/30 through 30/60 and I just don't find it possible to make 150/hour playing those games. So what games are the "successful" online players playin to make $150/hour?

[/ QUOTE ]

They play 15/30 and 30/60, but they play many tables at once.

[wickedgoodtrader]

I make my $2500 a month playin 3 tables of 15/30 at a time. There is still no way to average $150/hour. The books say you should make 1BB/hour playin casino poker. This is true. Now what most people do, is figure.. well, you only get 30 hands/hour in casino so I can multiply that by the 100 hands im getting online. You can't make as many BB's per/hand online because other players are doing the same thing, playin mutliple tables, and if there not, they are playing much tighter then they play at a casino because they get to see many more hands. Therefore your competetion is in general much better. Then when you add in your playing 3 tables, you have less reads on people then you would in a casino so you either going to pay off more losing bets and laydown more losing hands then you would in a casino. So your BB/hand goes down even farther. I think making $50/hour playing 3 tables 15/30 is about as high as anyone could average. The 30/60 games are much much tighter and anyone that plays those has a horrible game selection. Half the times, the good 15/30 games have higher avg. pots then the 30/60 games.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
I make my $2500 a month playin 3 tables of 15/30 at a time. There is still no way to average $150/hour. The books say you should make 1BB/hour playin casino poker. This is true. Now what most people do, is figure.. well, you only get 30 hands/hour in casino so I can multiply that by the 100 hands im getting online. You can't make as many BB's per/hand online because other players are doing the same thing, playin mutliple tables, and if there not, they are playing much tighter then they play at a casino because they get to see many more hands. Therefore your competetion is in general much better. Then when you add in your playing 3 tables, you have less reads on people then you would in a casino so you either going to pay off more losing bets and laydown more losing hands then you would in a casino. So your BB/hand goes down even farther. I think making $50/hour playing 3 tables 15/30 is about as high as anyone could average. The 30/60 games are much much tighter and anyone that plays those has a horrible game selection. Half the times, the good 15/30 games have higher avg. pots then the 30/60 games.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to waste any more time arguing this point with you. You make numerous bad assumptions. First of all, playing 3 tables online you should get closer to 200 hands an hour than 100. There are many 15/30 mulitablers who average 2bb/100 hands playing 4-6 tables. So at 4 tables that is about $150 an hour. You can search the other forums on here and find about 10000 posts which back up the points I'm making here.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't get involved in trading, but I definitely think you need a reality check. Your poker career has probably not been as successful as you think, and the fact that you know so little about the kind of results good poker players are getting makes me think you aren't the kind of person who really does their homework.

[RunDownHouse]

Why doesn't everybody just do this then?

You don't have an information edge on anybody, and I'd be willing to bet you aren't smarter than anyone else, either. Given that you're copmletely average in everything except your delusions, I don't see how you expect to do better than the average daytrader... which is broke.

[wickedgoodtrader]

Your completely wacked to think someone can make 2BB/100hands playin 4 to 6 tables!!! YOU ARE PLAYING MAINLY ONLY YOUR OWN CARDS AT THIS POINT! If this were true anybody with a solid limit holdem game would be making 500k+ a year because if you can make $150+/hour you don't play just 20 hours a week, you play 80+ hours a week. I like how all your responses reply.. I've seen tons of posts saying they can do it(people lie.. don't believe everything).. I'd like to see some hand histories over the course of 1 year and load them into poker tracker for some proof... GURANTEED NO ONE CAN SUPPLY THEM!!!!!!

[wickedgoodtrader]

I asked myself the same question about why I think I can daytrade better then the others. I really think my experience in poker is what sets me apart. I'm sure there are some day traders that are poker players. There hasn't been an explosion in daytrading like there has in poker. So I would assume most daytraders were trading before the poker explosion, therefore meaning they were trading before they ever played poker. Therefore meaning they had no poker skillz to apply to trading. Poker teaches disciplin and a tight aggressive style. I believe that is exactly what is needed to do well in trading. Psycology is also a big part, you need to figure how people will react to certain news releases, and decipher them. For example:

One release I read was on a penny stock where the ceo claimed he was going to purchase up to 4 million shares on the open market. He said he would do it under certain conditions such as price of the shares and market conditions. Well the stock rose sharply the day he announced this. I thought to myself.... the ceo is pulling the ole act strong when weak move. Obviously if a guy wanted to buy 4 million shares at the cheapest price possible, he wouldn't announce he was going to buy them, he would just do it! SO I knew the article was a bluff and didn't buy in and sure enough the stock has been on a consistent fall and not one purchase has been made by the ceo.

I have a ways to go on deciphering news releases becuase many are pretty much the same but with different companies, so once I've seen em all I'm sure there will be a pattern on hoiw the companies react to the news. But the bottom line is I think the tight aggressive/ no-tilt is what gives a successful poker player and edge over a daytrader without poker experienece.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
Your completely wacked to think someone can make 2BB/100hands playin 4 to 6 tables!!! YOU ARE PLAYING MAINLY ONLY YOUR OWN CARDS AT THIS POINT! If this were true anybody with a solid limit holdem game would be making 500k+ a year because if you can make $150+/hour you don't play just 20 hours a week, you play 80+ hours a week. I like how all your responses reply.. I've seen tons of posts saying they can do it(people lie.. don't believe everything).. I'd like to see some hand histories over the course of 1 year and load them into poker tracker for some proof... GURANTEED NO ONE CAN SUPPLY THEM!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Guaranteed no one WILL supply them. Not because they don't have them, but because such a large database is worth a lot of money.

And for your $2500 a month. That's pretty sad, I make that much doing bonuses and playing $1/$2 and $2/$4 part time.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I asked myself the same question about why I think I can daytrade better then the others. I really think my experience in poker is what sets me apart. I'm sure there are some day traders that are poker players. There hasn't been an explosion in daytrading like there has in poker. So I would assume most daytraders were trading before the poker explosion, therefore meaning they were trading before they ever played poker. Therefore meaning they had no poker skillz to apply to trading.

[/ QUOTE ]
So, by that logic, you are going to absolutely suck at day trading. After all, you were a poker player before you traded, so you have no skills at day trading and all you can apply to trading are poker "skillz (sic)!" And saying that there hasn't been a day-trading explosion comparable to poker is ridiculous.
[ QUOTE ]
Crackpot armchair-psychologist example

[/ QUOTE ]
Take a step back from this example and think of the event from a wider perspective. In what circumstances is it correct for a company to buy back shares? For that to be a good investment, two conditions must BOTH be met: it has to be a profitable investment, and there must be no better investments available to make.

The only reason for an investor to buy a particular stock is their belief that it will outperform the appropriate index (sort of; I know that's a very basic, deliberately simplified statement). When a company buys back its own stock, it is essentially giving up. It is saying, "We cannot invest this money in any venture which would add more value than the market expects of us at this time." Therefore, they return that capital to shareholders, so that they may reinvest it to gain at least average market returns.

Seen from this view, a company buying back shares is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, they are all but admitting that they cannot beat market expectations and therefore increase share price. On the other hand, they are returning capital to shareholders, which is better than sinking that cash into ventures that return less than the index or actually destroy value.

Given this information, the changes in price in your example are not surprising, nor is an understanding of poker bluffs and reads in any way necessary or helpful to understanding them. Guess what? Thousands of investors, if they could be troubled, would analyze that situation much better than you, so I still fail to see how you expect to gain an edge on the market.

[schroedy]

I would say, ipso facto, anyone with the handle "wickedgoodtrader" is going to have a zero balance in his Ameritrade account sometime in the next 12 months. Neither poker nor the equities market is easy. And anyone, who at anytime, begins to think that either is, is about to lose all his or her money.

But maybe it's only a 98% probability event.

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
Successful online poker players make $150+ an hour. They could make $100k a year playing less than 20 hours a week.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're talking about the top .01% of all online players right?

I'm being incredibly generous with that figure estimate.

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your completely wacked to think someone can make 2BB/100hands playin 4 to 6 tables!!! YOU ARE PLAYING MAINLY ONLY YOUR OWN CARDS AT THIS POINT! If this were true anybody with a solid limit holdem game would be making 500k+ a year because if you can make $150+/hour you don't play just 20 hours a week, you play 80+ hours a week. I like how all your responses reply.. I've seen tons of posts saying they can do it(people lie.. don't believe everything).. I'd like to see some hand histories over the course of 1 year and load them into poker tracker for some proof... GURANTEED NO ONE CAN SUPPLY THEM!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Guaranteed no one WILL supply them. Not because they don't have them, but because such a large database is worth a lot of money.

And for your $2500 a month. That's pretty sad, I make that much doing bonuses and playing $1/$2 and $2/$4 part time.

[/ QUOTE ]

part time: 4 hrs/day = 80 hrs/month (a generous estimate)

let's say $500 is bonuses. (2500-500)/80 = $25/hr = 6.25BB/hr @ 2/4 or 13.5BB/hr @ 1/2.

This whole thread reeks of exaggeration
--------------------------------------------------------

I have a pro friend who is one of the top players at party. He pulls in 2-4 $K/ week on average. $100k/year is pretty easy for him... but $150/hr longrun is asking too much.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a pro friend who is one of the top players at party. He pulls in 2-4 $K/ week on average. $100k/year is pretty easy for him... but $150/hr longrun is asking too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your friend is simply not one of the top players on party. Not even close.

[bcunha]

NH, but you are way behind. Just fold.

[Paluka]

I'm glad to see I get such a great reception here. I'm basically the only one on this forum who works professionally as a trader. I'm also pretty much the only one who plays poker at higher stakes. Every time I post something people call me a liar. Good luck, you guys are going to need it.

[B Dids]

There's been several threads in mid-high that will tell you you're wrong and Paluka is correct.

Reading is fun!!

[mmbt0ne]

A lot more than $500 will come from bonuses and rakeback.

But let's say you're right.
4-tabling, ~60 hands/table/hour means 240 hands/hr.
$13.5/hr = 6.75 BB/hr.
(6.75/240)*100 = 2.81 BB/100

So now he's playing strictly 1/2 and only getting $500 in free money, and needs a 2.81BB/100 rate to make $2500 in a month. That's nowhere near unbelievable.

[wickedgoodtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
There's been several threads in mid-high that will tell you you're wrong and Paluka is correct.

Reading is fun!!

[/ QUOTE ]

HEY I MAKE $500/HOUR PLATING CARDS!! Now that it is a thread, you believe it?

[HDPM]

"So what else would a wall street trader have on top of me?"

Not having to worry about lawnmower repair?

[Ulysses]

Cool. Do you have a blog site or something? Or maybe you could just post daily or weekly updates here? I think it would be really helpful to a lot of aspiring traders like me to hear about your thought process and investing strategies - and some OTC stock tips would be greatly appreciated! I read a lot of stock trading forums, but most of the guys on them fall victim to the hype and I end up losing a lot of money when I go with their picks. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get people to pay up to $1000/mo just to see your picks after a while. Also, if you keep playing poker as well, it would be great to hear your thoughts on the game. Since you're already crushing the 15/30 for $50/hr, do you have plans to move to the higher stakes games soon?

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you keep playing poker as well, it would be great to hear your thoughts on the game. Since you're already crushing the 15/30

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have any problems with people taking investment advice from this guy, since it's obvious he knows all there is to know about being a successful daytrader.

But a word of warning to Diablo and others. Don't let him know your Party screen-names. It puts you at risk, he could start showing up in your games and making things real tough for you. Sure, he may help you out from time to time with a tip here or there, but you're retarted if you think he's going to tell you everything he knows. He'll always know more than you and will never tell you his best moves. My advice is don't go swimming with the big sharks if you can avoid it.

[wickedgoodtrader]

I never said I was making $50/hour playing 15/30.. I was saying that was the max I think anyone could make. I'm more around the $30/hour range.

[wickedgoodtrader]

Also, about the OTC stock tips. I would love to share, and will try, but sometimes it is very difficult. I always use them as very short term investments... a day at the most. They tend to make their moves very quick if they are goign to at all.. in a matter of an hour or two. I get in the stock.. I have to keep my eye on it constantly.. therefore not really giving me the chance to make a post. Plus if it is a hype stock I get out really quick, so i wouldn't want to post on here the second I buy.. realize it's hyped, then leave you hangin and buyin in when I might have already sold. I'll see what I can do.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
I never said I was making $50/hour playing 15/30.. I was saying that was the max I think anyone could make. I'm more around the $30/hour range.

[/ QUOTE ]

For 3 tables? Wow. You should really move up to the 5/10 /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[wickedgoodtrader]

I don't lie about my stats.. $30/hour is solid.. I'm talkin over 100,000+ hands.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I never said I was making $50/hour playing 15/30.. I was saying that was the max I think anyone could make. I'm more around the $30/hour range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, OK. Yeah, you can probably do a little better than $30/hr. Still, it would be really interesting to read a blog or something from someone like you who has shown the ability to win at this kind of rate consistently, unlike most of the posters here who have good stats over some very short period.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, about the OTC stock tips. I would love to share, and will try, but sometimes it is very difficult. I always use them as very short term investments... a day at the most. They tend to make their moves very quick if they are goign to at all.. in a matter of an hour or two. I get in the stock.. I have to keep my eye on it constantly.. therefore not really giving me the chance to make a post. Plus if it is a hype stock I get out really quick, so i wouldn't want to post on here the second I buy.. realize it's hyped, then leave you hangin and buyin in when I might have already sold. I'll see what I can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the great post. This is exactly the type of knowledge I think would be incredibly valuable in a blog or newsletter or something. A lot of times I buy OTC stocks from these boards but it is way too late and I just end up losing money. Maybe you can just post a blog or updates here with your general strategies and thoughts and we can ask you followup questions? As for the specific stock tips, maybe you can just email them or IM them or something to the people who pay for your newsletter? That would be a really good strategy, I think. Create a blog which describes how you figure out what you're going to do that everyone can read for free and then make people pay to get sent your stock tips (or maybe just post a couple of them a week and those who pay get the rest of them).

It would be fun to have a catchy name for your blog or newsletter. Like "wickedgoodtrader's web" or something like that. Do like a spider theme, maybe...

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad to see I get such a great reception here. I'm basically the only one on this forum who works professionally as a trader. I'm also pretty much the only one who plays poker at higher stakes. Every time I post something people call me a liar. Good luck, you guys are going to need it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Paluka, instead of ripping on guys like this who have shown a proven track record of both poker and trading success, maybe you should ask some questions and try to learn something? Yes, there are maybe players who make more than him in the short term, but these guy has proven results over 100,000 hands. After you've played longer, you'll understand the significance of that.

As for your being a professional trader, well, I doubt it. If you were, you would be thanking this guy for helping you out with your job by providing some insight into his strategies.

Try to stop being so jealous and listen to him and maybe you'll actually start making some real money like this guy.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
the ceo is pulling the ole act strong when weak move. Obviously if a guy wanted to buy 4 million shares at the cheapest price possible, he wouldn't announce he was going to buy them, he would just do it! SO I knew the article was a bluff and didn't buy in and sure enough the stock has been on a consistent fall and not one purchase has been made by the ceo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read about this tactic on a trading board. One of the guys said he saw that and bought the stock short and made a lot of money, but I'm not sure what that means. Doesn't really make sense since the stock went down really bad. How could he make money buying that stock? Well, maybe he means "shortly after it went down" and then it came back up again after he bought it? A lot of times I read stuff like this and just KNOW the company is bluffing and KNOW the stock will go down. Too bad there's no way to make money on stocks going down! Wouldn't that be awesome, lol? If there were, I would be rich!

[Dan Mezick]

Hi,

Hey. Those 25K "pattern-trader rules" are a built-in structure, designed to protect you from yourself.

You might ask 6 people over the age of 50 that you really respect, what they might think of your overall plans.

Why not spend $400 to $500 acquiring every decent trading text ever written, and spend 1 year reading all of them?

Read about how millions of others have failed.

It seems you are busy arranging a very big 'forced awareness' experience for yourself.

Maybe you will read the books of Mark Douglas to learn more.

The chosen words and tone in your post seem to spell "total disaster".

Maybe take the self-assess test at www.traderscalm.com (http://www.traderscalm.com) and see for yourself.


[ QUOTE ]


Now, when a trader doesnt understand market behavior well enough to know what he is going to do and under what market conditions he is going to do it-

-and, at the same time, he is very attracted to the action and opportunities he knows exists and if he is also impatient with the learning process-

--his impatience and attraction will make him feel compelled to do something, even if he doesnt know what to he should do. How do you think the typical trader will resolve this dilemma?


He will play follow the leader, rationalizing that everybody else is doing something and furthermore, all these people can't be as afraid and unknowing as himself, so they must know what they are doing, or at least know more than him.

--Mark Douglas, THE DISCIPLINED TRADER, page 50



[/ QUOTE ]

[wickedgoodtrader]

Shorting a stock means your betting the stock will go down and you make money when it does. So you should be rich.

[wickedgoodtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

Hey. Those 25K "pattern-trader rules" are a built-in structure, designed to protect you from yourself.

You might ask 6 people over the age of 50 that you really respect, what they might think of your overall plans.

Why not spend $400 to $500 acquiring every decent trading text ever written, and spend 1 year reading all of them?

Read about how millions of others have failed.

It seems you are busy arranging a very big 'forced awareness' experience for yourself.

Maybe you will read the books of Mark Douglas to learn more.

The chosen words and tone in your post seem to spell "total disaster".

Maybe take the self-assess test at www.traderscalm.com (http://www.traderscalm.com) and see for yourself.


[ QUOTE ]


Now, when a trader doesnt understand market behavior well enough to know what he is going to do and under what market conditions he is going to do it-

-and, at the same time, he is very attracted to the action and opportunities he knows exists and if he is also impatient with the learning process-

--his impatience and attraction will make him feel compelled to do something, even if he doesnt know what to he should do. How do you think the typical trader will resolve this dilemma?


He will play follow the leader, rationalizing that everybody else is doing something and furthermore, all these people can't be as afraid and unknowing as himself, so they must know what they are doing, or at least know more than him.

--Mark Douglas, THE DISCIPLINED TRADER, page 50



[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post. I have 2 people over 50.. my parents.. and they hate the idea. Then again they hated the idea of me quiting college to do my lawn business full time and that has worked out really well for me. I feel like I am a born entrepreneur and im going to do what an entrepreneur does, take on risk to reap great rewards. Just faxed in the required info for my loan a few minutes ago.. the gold is getting closer!

Also.. the ameritrade guy also told me the same thing about the 25k rule being there to protect myself. Just because a buncha idiots lost there houses in the 90's daytrading doesn't mean they should need to make a law to try and protect the idiots. I think this is complete BS. Who in the hell has the right to do that. Why don't they have a cut-off loss at casinos. I'm sure more people have lost their homes in the casinos. I think there is an ulterior motive for putting that 25k lock on.

[jdock99]

Let me get this correct. You are a successful professional 15-30 HE player who runs a successful (summer) lawn mowing business and have already made a few quick grand day trading small time and you still need to take out a loan to come up with $25,000. I find it hard to believe that a 23 year old has the type of living expenses that after playing 15-30 HE sucessfully for 4 years and running a successfull business he needs to take out a loan for a $25,000 investment. The fact that you do not have the capital already suggests that you are not as successful in your current endeavors as you think you are and maybe should not be as confident jumping into a new one.

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi,

Hey. Those 25K "pattern-trader rules" are a built-in structure, designed to protect you from yourself.

You might ask 6 people over the age of 50 that you really respect, what they might think of your overall plans.

Why not spend $400 to $500 acquiring every decent trading text ever written, and spend 1 year reading all of them?

Read about how millions of others have failed.

It seems you are busy arranging a very big 'forced awareness' experience for yourself.

Maybe you will read the books of Mark Douglas to learn more.

The chosen words and tone in your post seem to spell "total disaster".

Maybe take the self-assess test at www.traderscalm.com (http://www.traderscalm.com) and see for yourself.


[ QUOTE ]


Now, when a trader doesnt understand market behavior well enough to know what he is going to do and under what market conditions he is going to do it-

-and, at the same time, he is very attracted to the action and opportunities he knows exists and if he is also impatient with the learning process-

--his impatience and attraction will make him feel compelled to do something, even if he doesnt know what to he should do. How do you think the typical trader will resolve this dilemma?


He will play follow the leader, rationalizing that everybody else is doing something and furthermore, all these people can't be as afraid and unknowing as himself, so they must know what they are doing, or at least know more than him.

--Mark Douglas, THE DISCIPLINED TRADER, page 50



[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post. I have 2 people over 50.. my parents.. and they hate the idea. Then again they hated the idea of me quiting college to do my lawn business full time and that has worked out really well for me. I feel like I am a born entrepreneur and im going to do what an entrepreneur does, take on risk to reap great rewards. Just faxed in the required info for my loan a few minutes ago.. the gold is getting closer!

Also.. the ameritrade guy also told me the same thing about the 25k rule being there to protect myself. Just because a buncha idiots lost there houses in the 90's daytrading doesn't mean they should need to make a law to try and protect the idiots. I think this is complete BS. Who in the hell has the right to do that. Why don't they have a cut-off loss at casinos. I'm sure more people have lost their homes in the casinos. I think there is an ulterior motive for putting that 25k lock on.

[/ QUOTE ]

As one of the Ameritrade "guys," why should we have to loan you anything? Regular margin buying power gives you 2x your SRO, while day trading buying power gives you 4x your SRO. This is quite a bit more risk. Ameritrade has a legal duty to protect its clients. Realize that we have given someone margin and then they have defaulted on the loan, taken us to arbitration, argued we shouldn't have extended credit, and won.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Shorting a stock means your betting the stock will go down and you make money when it does. So you should be rich.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing the point.

[ilya]

Superb.

[schroedy]

Dan:

You are as ever the voice of reason in the desert of insanity that is this forum.

I loved your post about what it takes to succeed in poker.

I wish this guy all the best as a poker player and as a trader, but I fear he is in phase one of at least one of his endeavors.

Schroedy's theorem: "Until you have lost all your money at least once (in poker and in trading), it is impossible to obtain the humility that you need to succeed permanently."

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
doesn't mean they should need to make a law to try and protect the idiots.

[/ QUOTE ]
ding!

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't they have a cut-off loss at casinos.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because a bunch of morons losing their life at the roulette table doesn't mean jack squat outside the strip. Meanwhile, an ocean of morons unloading billions of bogus bucks into the stock market could actually affect something other than their own -- now-broken -- existences.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
I asked myself the same question about why I think I can daytrade better then the others. I really think my experience in poker is what sets me apart.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder how many times this year this forum will hear this quote.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your completely wacked to think someone can make 2BB/100hands playin 4 to 6 tables!!! YOU ARE PLAYING MAINLY ONLY YOUR OWN CARDS AT THIS POINT! If this were true anybody with a solid limit holdem game would be making 500k+ a year because if you can make $150+/hour you don't play just 20 hours a week, you play 80+ hours a week. I like how all your responses reply.. I've seen tons of posts saying they can do it(people lie.. don't believe everything).. I'd like to see some hand histories over the course of 1 year and load them into poker tracker for some proof... GURANTEED NO ONE CAN SUPPLY THEM!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Guaranteed no one WILL supply them. Not because they don't have them, but because such a large database is worth a lot of money.

And for your $2500 a month. That's pretty sad, I make that much doing bonuses and playing $1/$2 and $2/$4 part time.

[/ QUOTE ]

part time: 4 hrs/day = 80 hrs/month (a generous estimate)

let's say $500 is bonuses. (2500-500)/80 = $25/hr = 6.25BB/hr @ 2/4 or 13.5BB/hr @ 1/2.

This whole thread reeks of exaggeration
--------------------------------------------------------

I have a pro friend who is one of the top players at party. He pulls in 2-4 $K/ week on average. $100k/year is pretty easy for him... but $150/hr longrun is asking too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I 8 table o/8. One hour in morning before work, 3-4 hours at night, 4-6 hours on weekends. I'm not trying to impress anyone. o/8 bb/100 and bb/hr rates are much much much higher than hold em at low limits.

[Dan Mezick]

Schroedy,

Thanks for the thumbs-up.

Regarding your theorem, check out Mark Douglas' books, especially The Disciplined Trader. He discusses in detail what he calls the "forced awareness" experience you describe.

BTW watch for my next essay in the Psych Forum. I'm going to spill the beans on something huge.

[wickedgoodtrader]

It's called a downpayment on the house.

[wickedgoodtrader]

CDED.. just got in at .02
New just relased on it

CareDecision Corp. Receives Firm Orders for $3.5+ Million in Bulk Prescription Drugs and Medical Diagnostic Products in January 2005
Business Wire - February 22, 2005 09:45

NEW YORK, Feb 22, 2005 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- CareDecision Corporation (OTCBB:CDED):

-- $1.05 Million in Product Shipped over First 30 Days

-- Company Reaps Unanticipated Profit before Merger Expense

-- $1.5 Billion Customer Re-Affirms Relationship, Increases
Product Offerings, Shipments Begin

CareDecision Corporation (OTCBB:CDED) provided today a first progress report on its new wholesale drug distribution operations recently acquired as part of the CareGeneration, Inc. acquisition through its Pharma Tech Solutions, Inc. subsidiary.

In one month since assuming operational control of the wholesale drug distribution unit formerly owned by Kelly Company World Group, Inc., the Company reported that it has received $3.5 million in new orders for prescription drugs, shipped over $1.05 million in the first 30 days of operations, realized positive cash flow and profit at the EBITDA level excluding merger expenses, and re-affirmed its relationship with its largest customer, a $1.5 billion Florida based distribution company who has increased its line of products it will purchase from the Company.

Robert Cox, Chairman of CareDecision commented, "January proved to be a watershed month for CareDecision. Our business performance confirmed our decision to acquire the prescription drug business from the Kelly companies as part of our acquisition of CareGeneration, Inc. In addition to realizing strong revenue growth, we have improved our gross profit margins substantially by trimming all unnecessary cost of sales and aligning our core business synergies. We also showed an unexpected positive cash flow and EBITDA profit prior to taking one time merger expenses."

Mr. Cox continued, "By expanding our wholesale drug distribution we will shortly embark on our macro mission, providing state-of-the-art technology so that physicians may efficiently fill prescriptions for America's 40+ million underinsured and uninsured. We would expect our current plans and actions to further improve our core business efficiencies and we expect that revenues will sequentially grow with gross profit margins, on a percentage achieving an industry average for retail closed-door and Internet-type pharmacies. At our current rate of growth, even as we paused to eliminate unprofitable lines of business, I feel rather confident about the ability to meet revenue guidance whereby CareDecision will be operating at a revenue run rate of $175+ million by year end."

About CareDecision Corporation

Through its subsidiary, CareDecision, already a leading Wi-Fi PDA technology product company for the medical, lodging and satellite rebroadcast industries, has concluded a merger with CareGeneration, Inc., a retail pharmaceutical programs enterprise with the mission to provide lower cost prescription drugs for the nation's 40 million underinsured and uninsured. With this acquisition the company has also acquired the wholesale pharmaceutical distribution unit formerly belonging to Kelly Co. World Group, Inc. The combined enterprises are expected to allow CareDecision to assume a leadership role in the areas of technology driven Internet pharmacy prescription fulfillment and technology enabled prescription drug distribution.

This release contains forward-looking statements about our business or financial condition that reflect our assumptions and beliefs based on information currently available. We can give no assurance that the expectations indicated by such forward-looking statements will be realized. There may be other risks and circumstances that we are unable to predict. When used in this release, words such as "believes," "expects," "forecasts," "intends," "projects," "plans," "anticipates," "estimates" and sim ilar expressions are intended to identify forward-looking statements, although there may be certain statements not accompanied by such expressions. All forward-looking statements are intended to be covered by the safe harbor created by Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.

SOURCE: CareDecision Corporation

For CareDecision, Los Angeles
Keith Berman, 805-446-1973
or
For Investor Relations Services
David Kugelman, 386-409-0200

Copyright (C) 2005 Business Wire. All rights reserved.

[J_V]

Paluka - first of all, I call BS on this loser. He's not going to put money in the market. Secondly, he would lose it all if he did. I think it's commendable you tried to stop him from breaking himself, albeit most likely fruitless.

I like all your trading/poker posts.

[wickedgoodtrader]

Doesn't appear to have legs... dumped it at .0215 for a 7.5% gain.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't appear to have legs... dumped it at .0215 for a 7.5% gain.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your transaction costs?

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't appear to have legs... dumped it at .0215 for a 7.5% gain.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your transaction costs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Say 10.99 with something like ameritrade? 7326 shares for 157.51 would be breakeven for him.

[wickedgoodtrader]

$10.99/trade

[jar]

[ QUOTE ]

BTW watch for my next essay in the Psych Forum. I'm going to spill the beans on something huge.

[/ QUOTE ]
If it's something huge, maybe send it to Mason for the magazine?

[Dan Mezick]

Maybe my next few, thanks for the suggestion.

I have this other good one I'm sitting on. Take a look in the Psych Forum-- I posted the new thing there.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't appear to have legs... dumped it at .0215 for a 7.5% gain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. I got in at the same price as you this morning, then had some meetings and went to lunch before reading your post and it is now down to .0191. Do you think I should hold on or just sell and take the loss?

[wickedgoodtrader]

There appeared to be ALOT of support at .018.. so much support in fact that it almost looked like an error in the orders (which is a possibility.) I don't know what it's going to do, but if you feel like trying to break even or maybe even still make some money on the stock I would have a stop loss set just under the .018 mark.

[Ulysses]

OK, great. I'll do that. At .019, I guess there's a good chance I'll hit that with any downward movement at all. But if I get lucky and it pops back up to my initial buy price tomorrow, you think I should dump it or try and ride it up? I don't have a great feel for timing these stock moves yet.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh. I got in at the same price as you this morning, then had some meetings...

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess being gainfully employed gets in the way of being a "daytrader." Who knew?

[Your Mom]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, great. I'll do that. At .019, I guess there's a good chance I'll hit that with any downward movement at all. But if I get lucky and it pops back up to my initial buy price tomorrow, you think I should dump it or try and ride it up? I don't have a great feel for timing these stock moves yet.

[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="white"> how long will your charade continue? </font>

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad to see I get such a great reception here. I'm basically the only one on this forum who works professionally as a trader. I'm also pretty much the only one who plays poker at higher stakes. Every time I post something people call me a liar. Good luck, you guys are going to need it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Paluka, instead of ripping on guys like this who have shown a proven track record of both poker and trading success, maybe you should ask some questions and try to learn something? Yes, there are maybe players who make more than him in the short term, but these guy has proven results over 100,000 hands. After you've played longer, you'll understand the significance of that.

As for your being a professional trader, well, I doubt it. If you were, you would be thanking this guy for helping you out with your job by providing some insight into his strategies.

Try to stop being so jealous and listen to him and maybe you'll actually start making some real money like this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

flawless victory

[Ulysses]

Stock isn't moving. Not really sure what to do.

[pokerjo22]

I'm kinda new to this too, but it seems to me that if the company has over a million dollars worth of orders, and you've bought into it for 2 cents, then the price HAS to go up right? I mean it just doesn't make any sense otherwise /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Dan Mezick]

I have to conclude that 'wickedgoodtrader' is really just running an elaborate and very effective joke here, and I for one have been sucked in by it.

Basing trades in penny stocks on today's news for 25+ percent annual gains, nice.

[Voltron87]

I was 100% sure it was a joke until he came back again and again... and then posted a pick with a news report. Very goot indeed. Whoever did this should out themselves, I would give them a lot of credit.

[34TheTruth34]

This is some of your best work ever!

[RunDownHouse]

I just don't know what to make of Diablo. I keep bouncing between thinking that he HAS to be kidding, and then thinking he's serious. I feel like I'm watching The Usual Suspects all over again, trying to guess who's who and what the truth is.

Its interesting, in a weird kind of way.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
Shorting a stock means your betting the stock will go down and you make money when it does. So you should be rich.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow that sounds good.

I heard this rumor that when a stock you own goes up, you make money. Is this true?

If it is, I could make a billion this year easy.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]

Ugh. I got in at the same price as you this morning, then had some meetings and went to lunch before reading your post and it is now down to .0191.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only thing I can't understand in this whole thread. El Diablo has meetings?

[Azizal]

I have repeatedly bashed Paluka for spending 50k a year in rent. Paluka has repeatedly bashed me for being too optimistic about gambling opportunities... and I agree with him on this one.

I know more than 5 people, which may or may not include myself, who make more than $150/hr playing online poker. I know many more who make $40-100/hr or thereabouts.

It's really not that hard to imagine, especially for people who get rake back, and I'm not including that in my above statement.

[imported_bingobazza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm 23 and have been a successful poker player for about 4 years now...Plannin on making 100k minimum the first year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to re-evaluate your poker situation if you have been playing seriously for 4 years now and cannot make 100k a year doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[imported_bingobazza]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 23 and have been a successful poker player for about 4 years now. I play in the winter and run a lawn biz in the summer. I recently started trading about 4 months ago. I got tired of playing cards.. just seemed like a constant grind that I never see myself gettin rich at. I'd average about $2500 a month profit but after my morgage payment and other expenses, I wasn't making as much as I'd like. I have all the goods now.. insider purchase alerts, live newsires, and the advanced anylyzer from ameritrade. I put $3500 into the account and now have 8k. Apparently the government has restrictions on what a daytrader can do if they have less then 25k in their account (long explaniation, but they'll lock up your margin and shorting ability). Well I don't know how they say most daytraders lose, but I see ridiculous returns on stocks that i've missed. Make a long story short.. I'm going to get me a 40k home equity loan tomorrow and im going for the gold! Plannin on making 100k minimum the first year.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a young guy, dont be in such a hurry. My advice to you is to turn your $8k into $20k in the next 4 months, and then turn that into $50K, and then that into $120k by this time next year. This is way, you dont endanger your home, you know you havent just been lucky, (which you probably have) and you will learn many valuable lesons along the way, and hopefully see a meaningful market downturn to test your theories.

If your brother came to you and said that he wanted to borrow $40k against your house as he has had a 166% profit betting on NFL teams in the last 4 months, would you give it to him based on these results?

[Voltron87]

You're telling him to shoot for a 1500% growth rate over a year? Great advice.

[imported_bingobazza]

[ QUOTE ]
You're telling him to shoot for a 1500% growth rate over a year? Great advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he fails to keep up his per annum performance so far (1500%), then he shouldnt take out a loan on his house. Its the best advice I can give him. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[wickedgoodtrader]

2-28-05
Just bought some WHSR at .99

Advanced Underwater Lithium Unit Passes Underwater and Systems Testing by United States Navy.
PR Newswire - February 28, 2005 08:28

LAS VEGAS, NV, Feb 28, 2005 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX/ -- Whistler Investments Inc. (NASD OTCBB: WHSR) - www.whistlerinvestments.com (http://www.whistlerinvestments.com) - and its subsidiaries R- Electric Car Co., Global Electric Corp., Solium Power Corp., and WhistlerTel - emerging leaders in the development and marketing of lithium-powered and VoIP products worldwide, is pleased to announce that testing on an advanced underwater lithium unit has been completed pursuant to a project agreement with the United States Navy (www.navy.mil). All systems have successfully passed testing and all systems functioned without complication.

For enhanced information please view
(http://www.whistlerinvestments.com/products.php?sec=1&amp;id=2)

In a previous press release dated Thursday April 29th, 2004 (http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/040429/56698.html), Whistler announced the naval project as part of its special projects division headed up by Chaz Haba (link). The Naval project incorporated several advanced lithium power systems which will be developed into commercial applications at Whistler's Van Nuys, California development plant.

Pursuant to naval testing the Whistler Investments lithium power system enhanced the current naval system power by 9%. "This is a massive success for Whistler as we anticipate that this advancement will be further improved by additional R and D," stated technology director Chaz Haba. He further stated that to "Increase a system's efficiency by nearly 10% is a major advancement and we are proud to be leading the way in advanced lithium systems."

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're telling him to shoot for a 1500% growth rate over a year? Great advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he fails to keep up his per annum performance so far (1500%), then he shouldnt take out a loan on his house. Its the best advice I can give him. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

haha. Got it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Voltron87]

Any results on your 40K or whatever it is? Are you at 60 yet? You should be.

[wickedgoodtrader]

Im only gettin 25k... it's in the process right now.. I should ahve it within 2 weeks

[wickedgoodtrader]

Just bought into XYNY at .0021.. it's running fast. Sitting at .0034 now .. just released they are eligible for the OTCBB.. it is currently PK.

Xynergy Corp. Now Eligible for OTC Bulletin Board
Business Wire - March 01, 2005 11:12

BEVERLY HILLS, Calif., Mar 1, 2005 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Xynergy Corp. (OTC:XYNY) is happy to announce that since its filing of the 2004 third quarter 10QSB last Friday, Xynergy is now current with its SEC filings and eligible for a listing on the OTC Bulletin Board.

Now that this filing is done, Xynergy is making the necessary arrangements to reinstate its listing on the Bulletin Board (OTCBB). Additionally, Xynergy is in search of convertible debt financing for expansion of its two companies, Raquel of Beverly Hills and Machinations, Inc. (See www.xynergycorp.com (http://www.xynergycorp.com) for more information.)

Xynergy Corporation is a holding company for: Raquel of Beverly Hills cosmetics, and Machinations, Inc. , producer of Think Blots greeting cards and related products. Contact: Raquel Zepeda, Xynergy Corporation, 269 So. Beverly Dr., Suite 938, Beverly Hills, CA 90212; 310-274-0086. (info@xynergycorp.com).

Safe Harbor Statement under the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995: The statements contained herein which are not historical fact are forward-looking statements that are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those expressed in the forward-looking statements.

[wickedgoodtrader]

Just bought in at .15


110 Media Group, Inc. Signs Deal to distribute its Products and Services to the Mobile SMS Market
PR Newswire - March 08, 2005 11:00

MELVILLE, N.Y., March 8, 2005 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX/ -- 110 Media Group, Inc. (OTC Bulletin Board: OTEN) today announced the signing of an agreement with Babecell which will allow for the monetization of it's content throughout Europe and Asia via mobile phones utilizing state of the art SMS billing system.

110 Media will join other companies such as Playboy (PLY) in marketing adult entertainment products directly to mobile phones and other devices in what industry experts, Visiongain estimate as a $3.4 Billion market.

Consumers in countries where cell phone penetration is highest are fast coming to expect that all of their digital entertainment -- be it news, sport, comedy and even adult -- is consumable on the move. The mobility of cell phones means that adult content can now be viewed anywhere, in complete privacy. No more having to hit the escape button when someone enters the room! In addition the payment mechanisms (premium rate reverse charge) for cell content are safe, easy, anonymous and secure.

The agreement makes 110 media's content available for download in a host of European, Western European, and Asian countries through Babecell's SMS fee based platform. The Company aims to fully monetize its assets, and enter untapped markets that can generate revenue and gain market share.

About 110 Media Group, Inc.

110 Media Group, Inc. specializes in the distribution of electronic based media focusing on the adult entertainment industry. The company's content is currently available to U.S. households through Web sites, DVDs and Video-on-Demand (VOD) services. The company has distribution agreements with the country's top adult industry VOD and DVD distributors. In addition, we distribute content directly to consumers via a series of high-end subscription based web sites.

About Babecell

Celestial Transactions, the creators of BabeCell, is an international provider of mobile multimedia technology &amp; billing services delivering global SMS*, MMS** and WAP*** solutions across a broad spectrum of vertical industries. We manage the complexities of mobile payment and messaging infrastructure on behalf of our international clients and our technology routinely handles the delivery, tracking and financial settlement of millions of mobile transactions every month. Headquartered in the UK, Celestial Transactions has been helping its clients generate revenue, manage customer relationships and extend brands into the mobile space since 2000.

For additional information, please visit the Company's website at http://www.110mediagroup.com.