full session post (with whining)

[memphis57]

I don't know if this will work very well, but let's see. In addition to PT, I keep a set of Excel worksheets on my play that I use to help me review what happened. The session tonight started off so typical of what I've been whining about lately that I thought I would try posting an extract from the Excel summary and ask you guys to help pick out hands to review.

I know I've got plenty of holes in my game, and I've been posting hands here for the last couple months to help me find them. But the problem is that it depends on me to pick out the right hands for review, and since I'm not real sure where to look for holes, I'm not sure I'm picking the most important hands. So here's a short session of 110 hands where I lost 6.5 BB that, like I said, seems very typical of what I've gone through for the last 10K hands or so. There are some bad beats, some things that worked out really well, and a lot of in-between, with the net result that I lost money. Does anything in this stick out, and which hands look like they need closer examination?

BTW, anybody know an easier/better way to make a table line up? This one kind of does thanks to a real complicated excel formula that puts in underscores, since the forum here automatically pares excess spacing.

The column heading explained are:
w/l - win/loss on hand
hand - my hole cards
pf bet - my total bet preflop
fold - when I folded ("-" means went to showdown)
flop - cards on flop
t,r - cards on turn, river
pos/blind - position off button (0=on button)/type of blind bet: SB, BB or new (just joined table)

The hands are in sequential order. I was two-tabling (I know, I know, but I swear I can watch 2 tables just as closely as one) so that's why the position counter doesn't move in sequence.


w/l___hand__pf bet__fold___flop_____t,r____pos/blind
(4.50)__J2o___0.50___-__Js 5s Jc___Ts Ah___1/new
(0.50)__75o___0.50___t__7h 2d 8d___3d Qd___5/new
(2.50)__QQo__1.00___r__Ks Th 3d___As Kh___2/ -
__-____53o___0.00__pf__Kc Ts Ks___8d Kh___6/ -
__-____KJo___0.00__pf__Ac 7h 7c___5s 4d___3/ -
(0.50)__A7o___0.50__pf__Qs 2h Qc___5h _____7/SB
__-____93o___0.00__pf__2s As 4h___Jd _____4/ -
__-____64o___0.00__pf__Jd 5h 7s___3h _____5/ -
+0.75__84s___0.50___-__Kh 8c Ks___Jc Kc___8/BB
(2.00)__KTs___1.00___-__Js 3h 5c___9c 2s___6/SB
(0.25)__K3o___0.25__pf__Ad 7c Js___5h 4c___8/BB
__-____84o___0.00__pf__4s 5c Qh___Kd Ad___0/ -
__-____74o___0.00__pf__3s Kd 5d___ _______0/ -
+8.75__QTo___0.50___-__Kc Jd Ac___9d 3s___1/ -
__-____Q5o___0.00__pf__6c Jc Jh___4h Ad___1/ -
__-____52o___0.00__pf__Qs Kc 7h___7d Qd___2/ -
__-____84o___0.00__pf__3d Jd 8c___Ah Tc___2/ -
__-____T7o___0.00__pf__4c 8c 5h___6s 2c___3/ -
(1.00)__66o___1.00___f__4d Tc 2d___6h 3s___3/ -
__-____Q3o___0.00__pf__Tc 2h Kh___8s 5c___4/ -
__-____95o___0.00__pf__Kd Jd Td___3s _____5/ -
__-____83o___0.00__pf__9s Qc 7c___Td 6h___4/ -
__-____K7o___0.00__pf__8s 9c As___Jc _____6/ -
+5.50__T8o___0.50___-__6d 4c 8c___3s Qd___5/SB
(2.50)__AKs___1.00___-__5h 8d 7s___8s 4h___7/SB
(0.25)__T9o___0.25__pf__Ks 2c Qd___7s 5c___8/BB
+4.00__A9o___0.50___-__Kh Kc Ks___Kd 4s___6/BB
__-____Q5o___0.00__pf__Tc Ts Ah___Ad _____0/ -
__-____T4o___0.00__pf__2s 4h Td___8d 5s___0/ -
__-____K6s___0.00__pf__5h Jc 6d___Td 4c___1/ -
__-____Q8s___0.00__pf__5s Ad Ah___Qs 5d___1/ -
+2.25__ATo___0.50___-__7c Ah Kh___ _______2/ -
__-____A7o___0.00__pf__Qd Ks Tc___9s Jc___2/ -
__-____73o___0.00__pf__2c Js 8c___ _______3/ -
(0.50)__A5o___0.50__pf__2d 4d Kc___6s As___2/new
(2.50)__KKo___1.00___t__Js 9c Qs___5c _____3/ -
(0.50)__K2o___0.50___t__4h Qh Qd___4c 5c___2/new
__-____T8o___0.00__pf__3h Qd 8c___As 6d___4/ -
+4.25__TTo___1.00___-__6c 8d 8h___8c 3d___3/ -
__-____A6o___0.00__pf__Ts 8s 5c___Qd 6c___5/ -
+4.00__76s___0.50___-__3d 5s Kh___3s 6h___4/ -
__-____A2s___0.00__pf__3c 6c Ac___Qh Ts___6/ -
__-____43o___0.00__pf__5c 7h 2h___Jh _____4/ -
(1.00)__J7s___0.50___-__2c 9s Ah___3c Qh___7/SB
__-____J6o___0.00__pf__2s 3h Ks___2h 7c___5/ -
(0.25)__83o___0.25__pf__Td 3h Th___Jh 5s___8/BB
__-____73o___0.00__pf__5h 7c 3h___9c _____6/ -
__-____QJo___0.00__pf__Tc 2c 3h___Kh 2h___0/ -
(4.00)__T9o___0.50___-__9d 8d 8h___Td 6h___7/SB
__-____T6o___0.00__pf__5h 4d Qc___3h Ks___1/ -
__-____53o___0.00__pf__Qc Tc 3c___Qh Ad___2/ -
(0.25)__83o___0.25__pf__2h Ah 4s___5d 7h___8/BB
__-____T3s___0.00__pf__Qc 4h 5c___Tc Jd___0/ -
(2.50)__QTs___1.00___r__5d Kh Ad___9s Th___3/ -
(0.50)__A2s___0.50___f__6c Td 9c___4c Qs___1/ -
__-____83o___0.00__pf__9s 4h Qc___Ah 6h___4/ -
__-____J7o___0.00__pf__5c Qh Jc___2h 6s___2/ -
__-____J5s___0.00__pf__9h 3c 9s___Ad _____6/ -
__-____63o___0.00__pf__3s 3c Js___Tc 5s___3/ -
__-____Q7s___0.00__pf__8d Jh Ts___4s 8s___7/ -
__-____T3s___0.00__pf__Kc 9s Ad___ _______4/ -
(4.50)__KKo___2.00___r__Ah 9h Ad___4h Th___5/ -
(0.50)__J3o___0.50__pf__2c 9d Ah___Jh 4s___8/SB
(0.25)__Q2o___0.25__pf__Ac 9d 6s___5d _____9/BB
+11.25__A6o___0.50___-__6c 9h 4s___Td 6s___8/SB
__-____54o___0.00__pf__3s Kd 4s___6s 5c___0/ -
__-____J8o___0.00__pf__6h 3c Ts___2s 6s___1/ -
(0.25)__J4o___0.25__pf__9s Ts 3h___Qs Jd___9/BB
+3.00__AQo___1.00___-__4h 5h 3s___2c _____3/ -
(0.50)__55o___0.50___f__Kc Tc 2d___Jh 9h___0/ -
(2.50)__AQo___1.00___-__Td 4h 2d___6s 6d___4/ -
__-____T2s___0.00__pf__Jc Qh 5h___5s 7c___1/ -
__-____K5o___0.00__pf__Kc 3h 2d___Ah 7c___5/ -
__-____K4o___0.00__pf__3s Kh 8s___ _______2/ -
+1.75__65s___0.50___-__5c 6s 4h___ _______3/ -
__-____Q4s___0.00__pf__6c 5d Jd___8c 6s___5/ -
(7.50)__QTs___1.00___-__Qc As 5c___Ts 2c___4/ -
(0.50)__86s___0.50___f__Tc 2c 7d___ _______6/SB
__-____92o___0.00__pf__2c 8d Kd___3h 9d___5/ -
(0.25)__73o___0.25__pf__Ad 8d Ah___2d 3h___7/BB
__-____96o___0.00__pf__3h 5d 8h___9d Js___6/ -
__-____95o___0.00__pf__4d 7c 5c___5d 2s___0/ -
(0.50)__QJo___0.50___f__5h Ts Ac___Ad 5s___1/ -
__-____53o___0.00__pf__Kc 6d 7c___8d 4c___7/ -
__-____Q7s___0.00__pf__4c As 7s___Ac 9h___2/ -
(1.00)__K5s___0.50___t__2s 9h 3h___2h Th___8/SB
__-____K4s___0.00__pf__7d 7s Ks___ _______3/ -
(0.25)__KTo___0.25__pf__Qs 5s 4d___9d 4h___9/BB
__-____T7s___0.00__pf__6c 8d Tc___3c 4d___4/ -
__-____J4s___0.00__pf__2h 2s Ah___Ac 2c___0/ -
__-____Q3o___0.00__pf__9c Jc 3c___9d Th___5/ -
__-____Q9o___0.00__pf__5d 3d 7h___Th 4d___1/ -
(3.00)__QJs___0.50___-__6c Td 9d___4d 8s___7/ -
__-____84o___0.00__pf__Qh 2c 3c___8d 7c___2/ -
__-____K5o___0.00__pf__Kd 8d Th___4c As___3/ -
(0.50)__QTo___0.50__pf__5d Td 7s___Ad Ks___8/SB
__-____T5o___0.00__pf__2s 7s Ts___ _______4/ -
__-____QTo___0.00__pf__8d Kh 3d___5d Ah___6/ -
+3.50__A7s___0.50___-__2d Ad 5h___9h Qc___9/BB
__-____86o___0.00__pf__Jh Ts 4s___Qc 9s___7/ -
__-____J6o___0.00__pf__3h Kd 7d___Kc _____0/ -
__-____87o___0.00__pf__Jd 3c Ad___4c 4d___1/ -
(0.50)__T4o___0.50__pf__As 9c 2d___ _______8/SB
(2.50)__T3s___0.50___-__9d 6s 5d___3c Jc___8/BB
__-____92s___0.00__pf__Kh 8s Kc___Qs _____2/ -
__-____T6o___0.00__pf__6s Kc Qd___Td 7c___0/ -
__-____76o___0.00__pf__6h 8d Ks___4c 8s___3/ -
(1.00)__QJo___0.50___r__2s 5d 3d___4h 8s___1/ -
(3.50)__AJo___1.00___-__Kd 4h Ts___2s 6c___4/ -
__-____K9o___0.00__pf__7s 8s Jc___7d Ah___2/ -

[Greg J]

Sorry dude this post gives me a headache. I think that is why no one is responding. That really sucks b/c you obviously put a lot of effort into this.

What I might do is post a HH of your last 100 hands on a separate site and ask someone to review it, providing a link. Even then, we might not have the time. (I don't)

[bottomset]

I'd look at a hand sample of 20-25 tops, but i'd need full hand history

[btspider]

6.5 BB's lost over 100 hands happens all the time. shockingly, you can lose that in one hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif

this one stuck out:
+11.25__A6o___0.50___-__6c 9h 4s___Td 6s___8/SB

post it. you typically shouldn't complete A6o in the SB after many limpers. also with that flop, you may have made some errors (calling flop, calling turn?).. despite winning in the end.


edit:
(2.50)__KKo___1.00___t__Js 9c Qs___5c _____3/ -

how'd you fold this one? gutshot on turn.. doesn't look like much $$ went into the pot after your PFR.

but yeah, in general, gotta learn to review your own play to identify candidates for questions. btw.. if you post em, just post em here.. not a new topic.

[memphis57]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if this will work very well...

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Sorry dude this post gives me a headache.

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL, no problem, that's what I meant by my introductory sentence. It is a lot to digest. And I didn't spend much time on it, all I had to do extra was write that one formula to make the columns line up half-decent, everything else was just cut and paste out of the worksheet I keep anyway.

I'm curious, though, doesn't anybody else try to look at session summaries, in the order they happened? I don't like PT's session tab so much because, for one thing, it calls a table a session, and for another you don't get a feel for how the hands flowed from one to another, just totals across the session. It seems like what a guy did in the last 5 hands or so has an influence on how the table reacts to his current play. So I've been working on this Excel-based session summary since I first got PT, and it seems to help me understand what happened when it's all over. This is just a part of it, the full deal calulates pot odds and draw odds and normalizes results to remove some of the randomness and groups hands by type and all kinds of cool chit. But then, I'm a financial analyst by profession and I get off on crunching numbers. I actually have more fun analyzing my results than playing the game, but I'm just weird there, I guess.

[VBM]

[ QUOTE ]
6.5 BB's lost over 100 hands happens all the time. shockingly, you can lose that in one hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif

this one stuck out:
+11.25__A6o___0.50___-__6c 9h 4s___Td 6s___8/SB

post it. you typically shouldn't complete A6o in the SB after many limpers. also with that flop, you may have made some errors (calling flop, calling turn?).. despite winning in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey spider,
not saying he should've played this hand ; i could see it getting Hero into a lot of trouble say, if you flop an A and you're worried vs later bettors w/ better kickers...

but it seems like, if he's getting a lot of limpers and in the small blind, isn't that a good price to see a flop? the whole, "tighter in small pots, looser in bigger ones" shbang...or, do you figure Hero's going into the fray w/o holding enough...

I would raise if all folded to me & i can steal vs. a tightish BB and or maybe even isolate vs 1 limper w/ a read...

[memphis57]

[ QUOTE ]
6.5 BB's lost over 100 hands happens all the time. shockingly, you can lose that in one hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, and I wasn't trying to say this was statistically significant or anything like that. -6, +6 or breakeven is all the same in 100 hands. But this one had a feel like my last 10K hands in terms of the mix of bad beats, AA/KK getting cracked, and weird worthless hands coming through for big wins. If you take this 100 hands and repeat it 100 times, it feels very similar to my last 10K - but then, that's not a very good sample size either. I'm really hoping I'm actually playing better than my BB/100 would indicate, but whether I am or not I know I have some holes in my game to shore up.

But my 2nd session tonight was much better - plus 10 BB over 200 hands but, more important, things seemed to work like they were supposed to and not all this strange stuff going on.



[ QUOTE ]

this one stuck out:
+11.25__A6o___0.50___-__6c 9h 4s___Td 6s___8/SB

post it. you typically shouldn't complete A6o in the SB after many limpers. also with that flop, you may have made some errors (calling flop, calling turn?).. despite winning in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was actually a big blind hand - for the BB/SB notation I use a formula that works off of the "position" and "total players" fields in PT, and for some reason PT has the wrong value on this hand for my position. I never noticed that before. I'll have to look into it and see if it happens a lot.

Anyhow, it's still an interesting hand, here it is. In my mind, it was strictly a pot odds calculation all the way through - it was very ugly and I felt I should fold on every street but I calculated that I had odds to call each time. Then I hit trips on the river and this trash turned out to be my biggest hand of the session.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.5. UTG+2 posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 (poster) checks, UTG+2 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB


[ QUOTE ]

edit:
(2.50)__KKo___1.00___t__Js 9c Qs___5c _____3/ -

how'd you fold this one? gutshot on turn.. doesn't look like much $$ went into the pot after your PFR.



[/ QUOTE ]

I figured I'd get called on this one, there's another like it too, early in the session. This was a read fold, basically, and is new with me the last few days and I'm not at all sure that it is correct. your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

The problem I was trying to solve was, since I started trying to be aggressive with hands like this, I've run into a number of weak-passives who just sit back and call and call and whack me with a raise on the turn or the river. If it's on the river I always call to be sure, or if the same guy does it to me twice I call the second time and like 1 out of 2 thereafter to keep him honest, but I'm trying to save money when I feel pretty confident in my read. Here it would have cost me 2 BB to see his cards, it looked like situations I had watched before with weak-passives, I didn't think he would bluff in the circumstances and even in this hand there was something about the hesitation in his betting on the previous street that really made me feel pretty sure he had KT. But I'm not used to or real comfortable with making those kinds of reads, and it seems the math tells me to call him. Again, I'm just trying this and don't know if I will stick with it. Do you think it was dumb to go with a hunch/read like that?


Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (5.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

Note: this is retrospective but I should have thought of it at the time. If he did have KT, then I had 1 out to beat him and 3 outs to tie, at a cost of 2 BB for a pot of 9.75 to 10.75 (upper range if I could get an extra bet after hitting). If I didn't assume KT but, say, QQ (which would also explain my read and his raise), then I had 6 outs to win which still doesn't justify the 2 BB cost versus 9.75 to 10.75 pot. Of course, if I had him beat all along then I was just plain foolish.

[memphis57]

Actually, I just noticed, I've got BB and SB reversed all through that chart - it's not a PT error but an error in my formula. Just for the record, since I erroneously maligned PT above.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
hey spider,
not saying he should've played this hand ; i could see it getting Hero into a lot of trouble say, if you flop an A and you're worried vs later bettors w/ better kickers...

but it seems like, if he's getting a lot of limpers and in the small blind, isn't that a good price to see a flop? the whole, "tighter in small pots, looser in bigger ones" shbang...or, do you figure Hero's going into the fray w/o holding enough...

I would raise if all folded to me &amp; i can steal vs. a tightish BB and or maybe even isolate vs 1 limper w/ a read...

[/ QUOTE ]

cmon ollie. you even responded to the thread i'm going to link for you /images/graemlins/smile.gif spydog's response to my hand is a rough guideline.

old hand of mine (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1618685&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

the biggest problem with A-babyX in the SB after many limpers is you are OOP, lose a lot when behind, don't make much when ahead.

[VBM]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

you're right. it was late, just trying to play some Devil's Advocate, stir some conversation....

[dkernler]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.5. UTG+2 posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 (poster) checks, UTG+2 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB


[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone else c/r this flop? I'm still learning when to best use it, but this seems like a 'try to buy a free card' play. Agree/disagree?

[GrunchCan]

You know, it seems to me that this table really is only a reflection of your PF game. I mean, there were some hands that I thought you might have been able to play, and others you might have mucked. But in a lot of cases this depends on the PF action before &amp; after you.

But your PF game has much less impact on you long-term (or even session-term) results than your postflop game. The problem with this table is we see none of your postflop game. That's where the money is made or lost.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that if you PF game isn't ridiculously bad, is almost irrelevant. This statement might be a slight exageration, but not a big one.

What's the moral of this story? You have got to post hands.

Please don't post 100 hands, however. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[GrunchCan]

Absolutely c/r the flop. It will save the pot.