Paying off the possible flush

[PotatoStew]

I think I may have identified a leak in my game -- paying off other people's potential flushes. If the pot is small, or I have a weak hand, it's no problem to fold. However, if I have a semi-decent hand, I find it very difficult not to call down even if I feel pretty sure the other guy has a flush.

Here are a couple of specific hands, both Party 2/4.

Hand 1

I'm in MP with AhJs. UTG, a loose player, limps. 3 folds to me. I raise. MP cold calls, no reads on him. Folded around to UTG who calls.

Flop: 8 2 6 all spades

UTG checks, I bet, MP raises. UTG calls, I call, thinking that MP probably has the flush, but could be raising with a pair for more info. I have 2 overs and a redraw to a so-so flush.

Turn: Jd

Check, I check, MP bets. UTG calls, I call -- if MP had been raising TPTK, or his own flush redraw, or a small overpair, I could be ahead now. Pot is about 8BB at this point.

River: 4c

Checked to MP, he bets, UTG calls, I call.

Hand 2

I'm in LP with KsQc. Folded to me, I raise. Button and SB cold call, BB folds.

Flop: 9 4 T all hearts

SB checks, I bet. Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: Jc ...I have a straight now.

I bet, button raises. A made flush would probably call the flop and raise the turn, right? Of course, maybe he just made a straight too... or top 2 pair. I call.

River: 8s

I check, he bets, I call.

So, am I leaking in these two hands, or are they reasonable call downs? Should I be more aggressive with a raise, and then fold to continued aggression, taking that to be a more certain indication of a flush? Is the possibility of paying off flushes just the price of doing business, and I should just stop worrying about it? It just seems like an easy mistake to avoid, once there's three of a suit on the board, but at the same time, I really fear folding the best hand and losing a decent pot.

[einbert]

If the pot is big and you have a good hand, it's almost always correct to call down HU. Just because you'll be paying the flush off "most of the time" doesn't mean that you shouldn't make the crying call(s).[ QUOTE ]


Here are a couple of specific hands, both Party 2/4.

Hand 1

I'm in MP with AhJs. UTG, a loose player, limps. 3 folds to me. I raise. MP cold calls, no reads on him. Folded around to UTG who calls.

Flop: 8 2 6 all spades

UTG checks, I bet, MP raises. UTG calls, I call, thinking that MP probably has the flush, but could be raising with a pair for more info. I have 2 overs and a redraw to a so-so flush.

Turn: Jd

Check, I check, MP bets. UTG calls, I call -- if MP had been raising TPTK, or his own flush redraw, or a small overpair, I could be ahead now. Pot is about 8BB at this point.

River: 4c

Checked to MP, he bets, UTG calls, I call.


[/ QUOTE ]

This hand looks fine to me. Don't give someone credit for a flush just because they raise your flop bet on a monotone flop. Your redraw is good a lot anyway. I also like betting the turn and folding to a raise, depending on how aggressive the player is. Against a more aggro player your line is much better. It's not bad against an unknown, especially one that calls two cold PF then raises the PF raiser on a monotone board.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2

I'm in LP with KsQc. Folded to me, I raise. Button and SB cold call, BB folds.

Flop: 9 4 T all hearts

SB checks, I bet. Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: Jc ...I have a straight now.

I bet, button raises. A made flush would probably call the flop and raise the turn, right? Of course, maybe he just made a straight too... or top 2 pair. I call.

River: 8s

I check, he bets, I call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your flop bet is a little slim here. You have at most 3 straight outs + 4 pair outs for 7 outs and anyone with a decent heart is calling to the river. I check and try to get a free card.

Turn bet is very necessary with the nut non-flush. Honestly I think this turn is close to a three-bet and fold to a cap (which would almost certainly be a made flush). You want to protect your hand in this case. I think you should have bet the river and called a raise.
Flopped flushes aren't very common. Don't give your opponents credit for one until they really really scream that they have one.
[ QUOTE ]

So, am I leaking in these two hands, or are they reasonable call downs? Should I be more aggressive with a raise, and then fold to continued aggression, taking that to be a more certain indication of a flush? Is the possibility of paying off flushes just the price of doing business, and I should just stop worrying about it? It just seems like an easy mistake to avoid, once there's three of a suit on the board, but at the same time, I really fear folding the best hand and losing a decent pot.

[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]
Be careful about betting the flop when the pot is small and you are up against a very coordinated board and several opponents, especially if you only have a very weak draw. They're usually not folding if they picked up any kind of decent draw.

These are certainly reasonable call downs. I actually think you should've played hand 2 more aggressively on the turn and river--you almost always have the best hand here! Remember you need a healthy balance between calling down when the pot is big enough and your hand is strong enough and folding when the pot is smaller and your hand is weaker. Just evaluate each situation individually and if you still aren't sure about a specific situation post the hand.

[PotatoStew]

Thanks for the reply.... so it sounds like maybe I shouldn't be worrying quite so much about paying off in these situations. Interesting thoughts about playing the second hand more aggressively. Seems kind of scary, but I suppose when you consider the opponent's range of hands, rather than just the possibility of the flush, it makes more sense.

Any other comments from anyone, or does everyone agree with einbert?

[poboys]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I may have identified a leak in my game -- paying off other people's potential flushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flopped flushes happen. And if you have a decent hand, then you are going to lose. One thing you may want to look at via PokerTracker (or however you log your sessions is how infrequently this really happens).

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1

I'm in MP with AhJs. UTG, a loose player, limps. 3 folds to me. I raise. MP cold calls, no reads on him. Folded around to UTG who calls.

Flop: 8 2 6 all spades

UTG checks, I bet, MP raises. UTG calls, I call, thinking that MP probably has the flush, but could be raising with a pair for more info. I have 2 overs and a redraw to a so-so flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

MP cold called two, so his raise should definately send off bells. Not sure why you think he has the flush--do you think he'd call two cold with anything less than AKs/AQs? A small pair doesn't make much sense, but a set or and overpair (TT,JJ,QQ) does. Given my holding, the pot, and MP's play, I strongly consider folding here.
[ QUOTE ]

Turn: Jd

Check, I check, MP bets. UTG calls, I call -- if MP had been raising TPTK, or his own flush redraw, or a small overpair, I could be ahead now. Pot is about 8BB at this point.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you are still in this pot, you've got to think that your J is good, right? Why else stick around at the flop? Given your position to the flop raiser, this is a nice change to check raise (again if your read is that your J is good). Your hand is very fragile right now.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2

I'm in LP with KsQc. Folded to me, I raise. Button and SB cold call, BB folds.
Flop: 9 4 T all hearts
SB checks, I bet. Button calls, SB folds.
Turn: Jc ...I have a straight now.

I bet, button raises. A made flush would probably call the flop and raise the turn, right? Of course, maybe he just made a straight too... or top 2 pair. I call.


[/ QUOTE ]

Easy re-raise here. If he caps, then check-call. Otherwise lead out the river. Sure you will lose to a flopped flush, but I think you'll get paid off more in the long run. He could easily of had a set or two pair here.