Comments on the slowplay welcome, but mainly I just love this flop =)

[Hulk Hogan]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB

Btw, it's my 4th overall in the last 6 months. Crazy.

[btspider]

i think you got very lucky here. and i'm not talking about the flop cards.

[WillMagic]

Bet the flop.

Will

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you got very lucky here. and i'm not talking about the flop cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew someone would say this, and it's just stupid.

There is NO good reason not to slowplay this hand. None. Zero. Zip.

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I knew someone would say this, and it's just stupid.

There is NO good reason not to slowplay this hand. None. Zero. Zip.

[/ QUOTE ]

$$ is a good reason. do you think this check induced MP3 to go ballistic and bluff with nothing? if he had something worth betting, he certainly had something worth calling.

post any reads/stats on MP3 and what he UTG+1 had and see what others think the expected action would be if you bet the flop.

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I knew someone would say this, and it's just stupid.

There is NO good reason not to slowplay this hand. None. Zero. Zip.

[/ QUOTE ]

$$ is a good reason. do you think this check induced MP3 to go ballistic and bluff with nothing? if he had something worth betting, he certainly had something worth calling.

post any reads/stats on MP3 and what he UTG+1 had and see what others think the expected action would be if you bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

My reads were thin. 27-5 on UTG+1 and 30-3 on MP but only about 40 hands on each.

You haven't stated why I should have bet the flop and how you believe this would have made me more money. Your argument that if he had a good enough hand to bet he had a good enough hand to call is not a good one, particularly at low limits. Furthermore, betting out would have as a matter of pure fact cost me money, given I wouldn't have been able to CR them both on the turn. In addition, the flop bet stood an excellent chance of getting me two quick folds.

[btspider]

so what did they have?

i don't see how they could possible hold something which would be correct to fold the flop for 1 bet, but correct to call 2 big bets on the turn blank.

[adamstewart]

You're lucky villain called your check-raise.

You're even luckier that he call the river after your check-raise.

(To me, if I were the villain, it would look suspicious to me that you *didn't* bet this flop).


Adam

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
You haven't stated why I should have bet the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you have a reason you expected MP3 to bet?

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You haven't stated why I should have bet the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you have a reason you expected MP3 to bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

very nice

(Here comes the 'spectacular read' part, though) /images/graemlins/wink.gif


Adam

[Monty Cantsin]

Please don't feed the trolls.

/mc

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Please don't feed the trolls.

/mc

[/ QUOTE ]

very nice. I won't say another word.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please don't feed the trolls.

/mc

[/ QUOTE ]

very nice. I won't say another word.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would telling me more be too pedantic?

[Harv72b]

Coming from someone who horribly butchered his only royal by trying to slowplay it, trust me--this is an absolutely horrible flop to slowplay.

The pot is neither small nor large, so that doesn't have any effect on the decision. But what are your opponents holding? And what will they think if you check this flop?? Most importantly, what good second-best hand are they going to make on the turn?

All of the high clubs are gone, so the odds of either of your opponents having a single club are somewhere between slim and none. So your action dies if another club hits on the turn.

If the board pairs on the turn, it could give someone a FH that they will gladly cap against you for a while. Of course, in order to make a FH, that person would have to have 2 pair or a set on the flop...are they going to fold for 1 bet? Are they possibly going to raise your flop bet?

This is an ideal flop to bet because it probably hit both of your opponents fairly hard, and nobody is going to give you credit for a flopped royal (or any flush, since you PFRd). You might be up against a straight already, or two pair, or a set, or a pair + gutshot. None of these hands are going to fold to your flop bet. Many of these hands will raise it.

On the other hand, your check on the flop will send alarm bells ringing in the ears of any good, thinking player in this hand with you. They still aren't going to think royal, but they are going to think set or at least aces up.

In fact, you can still accomplish your check/raise pretty often if you bet out the flop and then check a blank turn after they both call (because that's exactly how KK or JJ might play this hand, and it's a lot easier to put you on those cards than KcJc).

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You haven't stated why I should have bet the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you have a reason you expected MP3 to bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, other than that he might have thought I was scared of clubs and had a draw of his own. Which is precisely what he did think. Then the turn CR looked like a desperation attempt to protect something weak against a club draw or bluff out an ace. That induced the river call.

As for it being suspicious I didn't bet this flop, that's a real stretch. Any number of hands wouldn't bet this flop, and I'd just sat down. They didn't know I was aggressive.

[Hulk Hogan]

I'd like to refer you to page 73 - 'Slowplaying' of HPFAP. There are 5 criteria for slowplaying:

1. Your hand must be very strong
2. You will probably chase everyone out by betting but, have a good chance of winning a large pot if you check
3. The free card that you are giving has good possibilities of making second -best hands
4. The free card has little chance of making someone a better hand or giving someone a better draw with odds to justify a call
5. The pot must not yet be very large.


I had an absolute deck killer of a hand. All I could hope for is that the other players were convinced I didn't have a club and that I was scared of the flush. I got both of them to draw, and the one who showed down hit the baby flush on the river. He was chasing a gutshot as well, with J-8.

Many hands don't bet this flop out when played by some players: pocket pairs other than the sets with no club, weak, KQs, K10s, 10Js, etc etc. There is nothing suspicious to the average 2-4 player about someone freezing up on that sort of board.

Had I bet out the flop here I would have collected far fewer bets, but I don't want to be results oriented here. The plain fact of the matter here is that there is NOTHING to be gained by betting the flop, and everything to be lost.

I generally agree with betting out monsters, but anyone who thinks I should have bet this flop simply does not understand poker very well. Sorry.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
I generally agree with betting out monsters, but anyone who thinks I should have bet this flop simply does not understand poker very well. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you posting this hand then?

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I generally agree with betting out monsters, but anyone who thinks I should have bet this flop simply does not understand poker very well. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you posting this hand then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, because I flopped a Royal Flush? 650k to 1.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I generally agree with betting out monsters, but anyone who thinks I should have bet this flop simply does not understand poker very well. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you posting this hand then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, because I flopped a Royal Flush? 650k to 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

and?

[rmarotti]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to refer you to page 73 - 'Slowplaying' of HPFAP.

[/ QUOTE ]

"FAP" stands for "For Advanced Players"

This is 2/4.

Bet the flop.

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to refer you to page 73 - 'Slowplaying' of HPFAP.

[/ QUOTE ]

"FAP" stands for "For Advanced Players"

This is 2/4.

Bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

And make less money because I'm not playing against "advanced" players?

No, I don't think so.

[Dead]

The-Matador?

CinnamonWind?

Lansing?

Perhaps.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please don't feed the trolls.

/mc

[/ QUOTE ]

very nice. I won't say another word.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would telling me more be too pedantic?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because Hulk Hogan is likely The-Matador, CinnamonWind, Lansing, et. al. He/she/it chose a new name, it appears.

[PoBoy321]

Don't slowplay the nuts.

[Jake (The Snake)]

[ QUOTE ]
"FAP" stands for "For Advanced Players"

This is 2/4.

Bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best post of the thread, easily.

Hulk, do you really think you know more than all of these posters telling you that you're wrong? Come on, not everybody is that jealous of you.

For playing 2/4, read SSHE by Ed Miller. HPFAP is intended to be played against, well, advanced players. You are playing party fish.

[Chairman Wood]

[ QUOTE ]
2. You will probably chase everyone out by betting but, have a good chance of winning a large pot if you check


[/ QUOTE ]
This condition does not exist in this situation.

[James282]

I actually have to agree with this dummy and say that checking the flop isn't that bad a play.
-James

[Dead]

James agreeing with CinnamonWind?

Wow. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

jk

[James282]

Honestly there is a pretty good chance this is Cinnamonwind. Guy comes out of nowhere, makes a million posts and already has forum speak(meh) down, posts stupid hands with really long titles, it just...might....be!
-James

[utrnbmp3]

"Comments on the slowplay welcome"

"but anyone who thinks I should have bet this flop simply does not understand poker very well."


I don't think people who gave constructive arguments will ever bother commenting on any one of your posts again.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly there is a pretty good chance this is Cinnamonwind. Guy comes out of nowhere, makes a million posts and already has forum speak(meh) down, posts stupid hands with really long titles, it just...might....be!
-James

[/ QUOTE ]


I'd bet some cash that it is. It's just too obvious.

She probably thought she could fool us by making a totally different username and adding an avatar.

[Jake (The Snake)]

elaborate please?

What if it is checked again to you on the turn?

I think that if they have a hand, they are going to probably raise the flop, then you can flat call and go crazy on turn and river.

If they don't have a hand, they will probably fold unless drawing.

If they don't have a hand and you check, maybe you get a bluff out of MP2, maybe not. If he does bluff and you raise, action is dead. If you play the line hero played, the most you can expect to get is what hero got out of it.

I'd really like to see some numbers on this. It seems to me it is more likely than not that this kind of flop will hit one of them since they are high cards.

[Jake (The Snake)]

meant to be directed to James, doh.

[DMBFan23]

dude if you're so sure you're right then why did you post the hand? congrats, you got a royal. yippie. email party for your free hat.

BTW, you're wrong. check your own section you quoted, I refuse to type it out. I can't believe I'm bumping this thread, or taking the time to respond. arrrrgggghhhhh.h=asdfa09eur

[mr pink]

can't u read (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1748707&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=2#Post1750540)

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly there is a pretty good chance this is Cinnamonwind. Guy comes out of nowhere, makes a million posts and already has forum speak(meh) down, posts stupid hands with really long titles, it just...might....be!
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

A few members I respect knew this was Lansing after &lt;15 posts.

[Hulk Hogan]

Ooookay, a lot of this is going over my head, but I'm sure it will be explained.

Anyways, I'm glad James agreed with me.

As for the flop, yeah it is the kind of flop that will hit people, and that is exactly why you effing check it. Basically what I was doing on the flop was seeing if someone else would bet for me. I was risking the one small bet to see if I could gain more. I thought there was probably an 80% chance that if I checked it would get bet behind me, and it worked.

Now what, you ask, if it was checked behind? Fine, then I bet the turn. Anyone with a drawing hand will probably still draw at 2-4, so really I've at most cost myself 2 small bets I could have had on the flop. However, I have shown some fear of the clubs on the flop, so perhaps I get raised on the turn. And when the 4th club falls on the river, maybe a baby flush raises (or at least calls me).

Now what happens when I bet out the flop? I get two quick folds most of the time, because the pot is small, I am the PF raiser, and it's a deadly board. Sometimes I get one call, but likely not two. I bet again on the turn, with no option to CR at all, and it's either folded there or I maybe get one more call. Big deal.

Now some of you are saying that if someone else has a monster then I should bet because I could miss bets that way. Well wtf do you think they are going to do on the turn when I CR then if they do have a monster on this board? The betting pattern will be *exactly* the same, since they will only call on the turn, fearing a made flush. Even a set of aces, unlikely as that is, will probably merely call the turn. If I bet out the flop, maybe I get raised, and then knock OUT one of the others (remember I got to CR them both on the turn). Then even if I get a 3 bet in on the turn, I am losing a bet still.

There is simply no scenario where betting out the flop is a good play here. Nothing good can come of it. I will either get folds, frozen calling, or a raise that knocks one of my opponents out. In the miracle scenario where I am up against another made flush or a set, I will get either the same or less action than with the line I took.

The only way to extract the max here is to play deceptively and make the other bettors think the clubs scared me. That's what happened, and I was able to make much more than the usual because I didn't mindlessly follow the instructions of this board.

Instructions which, incidently, rely on an incorrect reading of SSHE. If you take the time to read it carefully, it advocates slowplaying in a number of different spots. It does not discuss absolute monsters like this, and for good reason, but on page 128 for example, it advocates slowplaying with KK on a K high rainbow no-draw flop. Now do you just *think* a flopped godamn royal flush might fit into the category of hands where you don't need to knock out opponents, you might want to give them cards to catch up, or you might want to induce semi-bluffs?

I have a tremendous amount of respect for the advice on this board in general, but this thread is a good example of people who don't appear to understand a concept properly advocating a certain tactic without really understanding why (or rather, why it's a bad tactic).

[DarkKnight]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to refer you to page 73 - 'Slowplaying' of HPFAP. There are 5 criteria for slowplaying:

1. Your hand must be very strong
2. You will probably chase everyone out by betting but, have a good chance of winning a large pot if you check
3. The free card that you are giving has good possibilities of making second -best hands
4. The free card has little chance of making someone a better hand or giving someone a better draw with odds to justify a call
5. The pot must not yet be very large.


[/ QUOTE ]

1) OK
2) Chase everyone by betting yes, good chance of winning large pot - I don't think so - how is this pot ever going to get big? Who's going to go crazy over anything less than a set here? Even a set should be scared to play fast.
3) What second best hand is getting made? A straight?
4) ok
5) ok

IMO you're missing 2 of the 5 esential elements for a good slowplay.

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]

I generally agree with betting out monsters, but anyone who thinks I should have bet this flop simply does not understand poker very well. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking for myself, I agree on both the former and latter points. That said, these things are not mutually exclusive: bet the flop, dude. Then, go away, Lansing.

[nolanfan34]

I haven't read the other posts, but nice hand!

Did you get a screenshot of the board? That would be cool to post for us to see.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, the flop bet stood an excellent chance of getting me two quick folds.


[/ QUOTE ]

If the flop bet has that 'excellent' of a chance of getting 2 quick folds, wouldn't a turn c/r be even more likely to get folds? After all, that's a much stronger bet than a simple flop bet.

I try and be careful about c/r'ing nut hands on the turn. It's a strong move that looks like you're protecting something big that can fold out many hands you don't want gone yet. Many opponents will see this as a very strong hand as that's what they'd tend to c/r with. Not to mention, you have the 2 highest flush cards. You can easily fold out any other flush cards that think there's a gnat's ass chance their little flush might be good if it hits.

Not saying I'd bet or check the flop, I can go both ways. But Im not c/r the turn unless I know these guys will chase anything for sure.

b

[bernie]

I don't mind the flop check. However,

[ QUOTE ]
Many hands don't bet this flop out when played by some players: pocket pairs other than the sets with no club, weak, KQs, K10s, 10Js, etc etc. There is nothing suspicious to the average 2-4 player about someone freezing up on that sort of board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can think of many, many hands I'd bet out with on this board. Many hands should be bet on this board. If they are folding that quick to a bet on this board, you should be betting even more hands on these types of boards. It may be that you're not betting enough hands here if they are folding too quick. A flop bet is not a powerful bet at all. It shouldn't be viewed as one so powerful it will fold the field on a board like this. Especially in comparison to a turn checkraise.

[ QUOTE ]
but anyone who thinks I should have bet this flop simply does not understand poker very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true at all. As mentioned above, one could say the same thing about someone who thinks a single flop bet is making their hand too defineable.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
The only way to extract the max here is to play deceptively and make the other bettors think the clubs scared me.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the most deceptive ways to play is to play str8 forward. It is much, much more common for the average player to check their made nut good hands on the flop than bet them. Some will check it all the way to the river while everyone else 'freezes' up that you might be slowplaying a monster.

[ QUOTE ]
There is simply no scenario where betting out the flop is a good play here. Nothing good can come of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true. If they have any piece of this board they will call. If they have none, they will fold regardless of who bets.

[ QUOTE ]
In the miracle scenario where I am up against another made flush or a set, I will get either the same or less action than with the line I took.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not necesarily. And there's no way you can prove either other than maybe in hindsight.

[ QUOTE ]
but on page 128 for example, it advocates slowplaying with KK on a K high rainbow no-draw flop. Now do you just *think* a flopped godamn royal flush might fit into the category of hands where you don't need to knock out opponents, you might want to give them cards to catch up, or you might want to induce semi-bluffs?


[/ QUOTE ]

There's a big difference between a set of Ks on a draw free flop and flopping a royal on a heavy draw/made hands possible flop.

[ QUOTE ]
but this thread is a good example of people who don't appear to understand a concept properly advocating a certain tactic without really understanding why

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they understand it.

All that said, I may have checked the flop also. But not necesarily for the overthought, condescending reasons your giving.

b

[bernie]

After slogging through this thread. I have a question that I didn't see brought up. Sorry if I missed it somewhere.

What hands are they putting you on if you bet out on this flop? Is the range really that narrow that it would scare everyone into folding?

b

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In addition, the flop bet stood an excellent chance of getting me two quick folds.


[/ QUOTE ]

If the flop bet has that 'excellent' of a chance of getting 2 quick folds, wouldn't a turn c/r be even more likely to get folds? After all, that's a much stronger bet than a simple flop bet.

I try and be careful about c/r'ing nut hands on the turn. It's a strong move that looks like you're protecting something big that can fold out many hands you don't want gone yet. Many opponents will see this as a very strong hand as that's what they'd tend to c/r with. Not to mention, you have the 2 highest flush cards. You can easily fold out any other flush cards that think there's a gnat's ass chance their little flush might be good if it hits.

Not saying I'd bet or check the flop, I can go both ways. But Im not c/r the turn unless I know these guys will chase anything for sure.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely NOT!

A turn CR often induces a calldown at low limits. It's a weird little quirk, but highly reliable. I've found that people are less scared of losing the hand than they are of getting bluffed out of a pot, particularly very bad players.

Flop bets generally mean "you'll have to put in bets on two more streets to see the showdown" and scare people off at low limits, whereas turn raises mean "only a couple more bets to the showdown, and I might catch a miracle to beat this a-hole on the river too!" to them and they go into call mode. Rational? No. But it's quite reliable, as I said.

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
After slogging through this thread. I have a question that I didn't see brought up. Sorry if I missed it somewhere.

What hands are they putting you on if you bet out on this flop? Is the range really that narrow that it would scare everyone into folding?

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Aces, maybe kings, maybe a flopped flush, possibly a flopped straight, a set, big cards with a pair and a higher club. Remember, nobody has higher than the 9c off the flop and I know it. So really, what I had to do is convince them I was scared of the clubs on the flop.

A flop bet would have reeked of either a made flush or stronger flush draw than any of them could have had, a set with a strong redraw to beat the clubs, or a made straight hoping to dodge a club. I think a flop bet means they put me on a very big hand here, even for the "idiots" at 2-4 (and I totally disagree with the lack of respect this board gives average low limit players, btw).

Now I am sure some people are going to say that there are lots of hands that they might have liked that hit this flop as well, but then on the turn I still get my action, with big bets, and I might even get reraised. But my hand is a deck killer, as I have covered off the two most obvious big hands on this board. So unless I convince people I am scared of the flop in some way, they aren't likely to draw or come with me (unless I am way luckier than normal and they've flopped a set, which is the height of crazy optimism).

I still have not heard one single good reason to bet this flop. Remember that "because you miss bets if you don't" is not good enough, because it provides no reasons and merely an unsupported conclusion.

[bernie]

So basically you're saying a flop bet is a stronger move than a turn c/r?

Ok...

....

b

[Jake (The Snake)]

[ QUOTE ]
Aces, maybe kings, maybe a flopped flush, possibly a flopped straight, a set, big cards with a pair and a higher club. Remember, nobody has higher than the 9c off the flop and I know it. So really, what I had to do is convince them I was scared of the clubs on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, nobody can put somebody on a flopped straight, flush, or set right on the flop. Especially dumb party fish.

More importantly, if you were scared of clubs, you would bet.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
A flop bet would have reeked of either a made flush or stronger flush draw than any of them could have had, a set with a strong redraw to beat the clubs, or a made straight hoping to dodge a club. I think a flop bet means they put me on a very big hand here,

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this because that's what they'd likely bet in this spot?

[ QUOTE ]
(and I totally disagree with the lack of respect this board gives average low limit players, btw).

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this Party 2-4? I play on UB 2-4 which is known to be tougher and I don't give them any respect.

[ QUOTE ]
But my hand is a deck killer, as I have covered off the two most obvious big hands on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems you're equating this hand with a flopped quad hand with little redraw value on the flop. This flop can hit many hands. Many hands will call a flop bet.

I'll dare say it, but maybe you're not betting enough hands on the flop if you think they'll instantly fold here. That's not saying I wouldn't check this flop, but not for that reason. Im one of the tightest guys playing in my live game. Where reads are much more prevelant even for the donators. I tend to get quite a bit of action on monster hands. You're telling me you can't do that online where the reads can be a bit tougher to get?

All I've ever read about the Party 2-4 is how gravy it is. All of a sudden you found the one tightie table?

On top of all that, acting like checking the flop is the 'only' way to play this hand is ludicrous to say the least.

b

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A flop bet would have reeked of either a made flush or stronger flush draw than any of them could have had, a set with a strong redraw to beat the clubs, or a made straight hoping to dodge a club. I think a flop bet means they put me on a very big hand here,

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this because that's what they'd likely bet in this spot?

[ QUOTE ]
(and I totally disagree with the lack of respect this board gives average low limit players, btw).

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this Party 2-4? I play on UB 2-4 which is known to be tougher and I don't give them any respect.

[ QUOTE ]
But my hand is a deck killer, as I have covered off the two most obvious big hands on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems you're equating this hand with a flopped quad hand with little redraw value on the flop. This flop can hit many hands. Many hands will call a flop bet.

I'll dare say it, but maybe you're not betting enough hands on the flop if you think they'll instantly fold here. That's not saying I wouldn't check this flop, but not for that reason. Im one of the tightest guys playing in my live game. Where reads are much more prevelant even for the donators. I tend to get quite a bit of action on monster hands. You're telling me you can't do that online where the reads can be a bit tougher to get?

All I've ever read about the Party 2-4 is how gravy it is. All of a sudden you found the one tightie table?

On top of all that, acting like checking the flop is the 'only' way to play this hand is ludicrous to say the least.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet plenty of hands on the flop. I almost never slowplay.

Still not one good reason to bet has been put forward. "Because they will call" is NOT a good reason to bet, particularly when 99% of Party 2-4 players will bet out with any hand they would have called with anyways, opening up to a turn CR which then leaves them pot-committed to call down.

I still have received no good reason not to play the hand exactly how I did.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
I still have received no good reason not to play the hand exactly how I did.

[/ QUOTE ]

So play it the same way the next time you flop a royal, you condescending arrogant.....

People have raised some good points about how to play this, that you have argued exhaustively (I believe in the wrong, but...), and disrespectfully. Do not post hands and look for praise, because in a forum filled with people who have honed their skills to find flaws in people's play you won't get it. Go show the hand to you mom (or another loved one of your choosing), and you will get your desired reaction.

That's it.

[me454555]

Because they will call is a perfectly acceptable reson to bet the flop. You get more money into the pot w/the best hand. Also, what kind of a hand would a checkraise "tie" to the pot. Theres a 3 flush on the board and anyone w/out a flushdraw is going to be very scared. I agree that betting out here is superior b/c there is really are very few cards on the turn that will "tie" someone to the pot w/a hand they would have folded on the turn for 1 bet. The only ones I can think of is when a player has a pp and they hit a set on the turn. The more likely outcome is that they fold on the turn to your c/r and you win 1 bb instead of a sb or 2. betting out on this flop actually feigns weakness I think b/c it looks like an obvious bluff

Please let this post die!! This is one of those "I flopped a royal and I want to brag posts" The orignal poster seems incapable of accepting crticism of his play. Why post did you post this then? If you are convinced your play was good then theres nothing to argue. This should be a accepted rule in these forums. If your willing to post a hand don't sit there an write how everyone who criticizes your play is wrong. Ask questions about why they recommend a play or how they came to the conclusion but don't say "your wrong, I'm going to keep playing it my way" If you feel this way, DON'T POST THE HAND b/c you don't need help playing it.

I hate posts like this where somoeone flops a huge hand and then asks, can I get more bets out of this. How many times do you hit 4 of kind or a strait flush? very rare. Bottom line is you can't butcher these hands too bad and they will not add to your win rate significantly b/c it occurs so rare. Can people please stop posting them b/c they generate a lot of useless discussion.

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I still have received no good reason not to play the hand exactly how I did.

[/ QUOTE ]

So play it the same way the next time you flop a royal, you condescending arrogant.....

People have raised some good points about how to play this, that you have argued exhaustively (I believe in the wrong, but...), and disrespectfully. Do not post hands and look for praise, because in a forum filled with people who have honed their skills to find flaws in people's play you won't get it. Go show the hand to you mom (or another loved one of your choosing), and you will get your desired reaction.

That's it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol nice post. Still no reason not to check the flop though, in spite of you telling me good points have been raised. They have not.

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
Because they will call is a perfectly acceptable reson to bet the flop. You get more money into the pot w/the best hand. Also, what kind of a hand would a checkraise "tie" to the pot. Theres a 3 flush on the board and anyone w/out a flushdraw is going to be very scared. I agree that betting out here is superior b/c there is really are very few cards on the turn that will "tie" someone to the pot w/a hand they would have folded on the turn for 1 bet. The only ones I can think of is when a player has a pp and they hit a set on the turn. The more likely outcome is that they fold on the turn to your c/r and you win 1 bb instead of a sb or 2. betting out on this flop actually feigns weakness I think b/c it looks like an obvious bluff

Please let this post die!! This is one of those "I flopped a royal and I want to brag posts" The orignal poster seems incapable of accepting crticism of his play. Why post did you post this then? If you are convinced your play was good then theres nothing to argue. This should be a accepted rule in these forums. If your willing to post a hand don't sit there an write how everyone who criticizes your play is wrong. Ask questions about why they recommend a play or how they came to the conclusion but don't say "your wrong, I'm going to keep playing it my way" If you feel this way, DON'T POST THE HAND b/c you don't need help playing it.

I hate posts like this where somoeone flops a huge hand and then asks, can I get more bets out of this. How many times do you hit 4 of kind or a strait flush? very rare. Bottom line is you can't butcher these hands too bad and they will not add to your win rate significantly b/c it occurs so rare. Can people please stop posting them b/c they generate a lot of useless discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Because they will call" is not a good enough reason to bet the flop here. The point is to get the most money in the pot, and a flop bet does not give you the best chance to do this. Still no good arguments the other way here.

And I'll post whatever I want, thanks. I don't spam, I don't clutter, and nobody is forcing you to respond or read my posts.

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]

And I'll post whatever I want, thanks. I don't spam, I don't clutter, and nobody is forcing you to respond or read my posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

You keep coming back under different names, which makes it more difficult for people to avoid you.

[deadmunny]

Dear Hulk,

I do not see anything wrong in the turn C/R /images/graemlins/tongue.gif


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

River: (13.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

Regards D

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
"Because they will call" is not a good enough reason to bet the flop here. The point is to get the most money in the pot, and a flop bet does not give you the best chance to do this. Still no good arguments the other way here.

And I'll post whatever I want, thanks. I don't spam, I don't clutter, and nobody is forcing you to respond or read my posts.


[/ QUOTE ]


Dear Hulk,

You (and all of your aliases) are the most rhetorical poster I have ever seen.

Several arguments have been given to support betting the flop. You've just (subjectively) dismissed them as "no good."

I suppose this whole discussion revolves around the semantics of what constitutes a "good argument." I suggest finding a "Philosophy Forum" for further discussion on this matter.


Shouldn't you be on a flight to The Bike in LA??


Adam

[adamstewart]

Raise preflop.

Your hand is a little different than Hulk's because you didn't raise preflop, and you have 5 players acting behind you, as opposed to only *1*.

First let me say that I don't "hate" the way that Hulk played his above hand. The point, though, with these flopped monster hands is that, as the Hulk has said, they are "deck killers," meaning most of time time you aren't going to get much action out of them (unfortunately). Therefore, a check-raise here or there isn't going to contribute very much to your overall winrate - given that sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, but in any case, THEY DON'T HAPPEN VERY OFTEN.

<font color="blue">These monster's do have tremendous value in the rare instances when one of your opponent's has a 2nd best 'big hand.' (ie. a set, boat, or quads against a straight flush).

In such instances, slow playing is NOT a good idea because when you bet out, you will get raised, then you can reraise, etc, etc. The hand will likely get capped every street! Therefore, if you had "slowplayed" any street, you would have missed bets.

In summary, most of the times you flop there monsters there won't be much difference in your profit regardless of how you play them. HOWEVER, in those rare instances when someone is going to pay you off, they're going to do so LARGELY, so don't slow play it - milk it.</font>


Adam

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Because they will call" is not a good enough reason to bet the flop here. The point is to get the most money in the pot, and a flop bet does not give you the best chance to do this. Still no good arguments the other way here.

And I'll post whatever I want, thanks. I don't spam, I don't clutter, and nobody is forcing you to respond or read my posts.


[/ QUOTE ]


Dear Hulk,

You (and all of your aliases) are the most rhetorical poster I have ever seen.

Several arguments have been given to support betting the flop. You've just (subjectively) dismissed them as "no good."

I suppose this whole discussion revolves around the semantics of what constitutes a "good argument." I suggest finding a "Philosophy Forum" for further discussion on this matter.


Shouldn't you be on a flight to The Bike in LA??


Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Where?

Where have these arguments been given?

List any that you have found "good" or persuasive.

And I'm not flying to LA, it's like a 4 hour drive. Wtf aliases are you talking about. We're talking about how to play a monster.

[hizo1]

Stewie I say Cluster B PD, elements of histrionic and narcissistic PD.

Hit the books and get off the forums champ.

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
Stewie I say Cluster B PD, elements of histrionic and narcissistic PD.

Hit the books and get off the forums champ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've hit the books already kthxbye.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
And I'm not flying to LA, it's like a 4 hour drive. Wtf aliases are you talking about. We're talking about how to play a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

SF to LA is not a 4 hour drive. It's like an hour just to San Jose, and another hour to Gilroy.

There's a b'way gutshot and an Ace on the board. No one is folding.

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]


SF to LA is not a 4 hour drive. It's like an hour just to San Jose, and another hour to Gilroy.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lol! I wonder what its next incarnation will be. Please Mat, ban this idiot.

[Hulk Hogan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I'm not flying to LA, it's like a 4 hour drive. Wtf aliases are you talking about. We're talking about how to play a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

SF to LA is not a 4 hour drive. It's like an hour just to San Jose, and another hour to Gilroy.

There's a b'way gutshot and an Ace on the board. No one is folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, you're stupid and have clearly never msde the drive. 4 hours is conservative.

Partygirluk won't stop PMing me with total nonsense. That's a ban, isn't it?

[college_boy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I'm not flying to LA, it's like a 4 hour drive. Wtf aliases are you talking about. We're talking about how to play a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

SF to LA is not a 4 hour drive. It's like an hour just to San Jose, and another hour to Gilroy.

There's a b'way gutshot and an Ace on the board. No one is folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, you're stupid and have clearly never msde the drive. 4 hours is conservative.

Partygirluk won't stop PMing me with total nonsense. That's a ban, isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't we played this game before, and didn't it end with you being owned? Please stop. Leave gracefully.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Stewie I say Cluster B PD, elements of histrionic and narcissistic PD.

Hit the books and get off the forums champ.

[/ QUOTE ]


LMAO.

Med school exams in 4 days, and I hate studying.

Can't wait to start drinking next wednesday night! /images/graemlins/wink.gif


Definitely Cluster B type personality with this one. Then again, which type does "Histrionic Personality Disorder" belong to? I forget.


Adam

[sfer]

I've made the drive at least two dozen times.