To put the one chip or not to put the one chip?

[Pokerguy]

In 15-30 holdem with 10-15 blinds what hands are you putting the one chip in with? I don't like putting the chip in with bad hands. I fold most hands with a deuce in them if not suited. Sure your usually getting good odds for one chip. But are they good enough to play cheese? My thinking is my hands bad enough now i have to try to beat a big field of players with this garbage? I feel unless i flop 2 pair or trips with these hands there will be a very good chance im behind even if i flop top pair as someone out there has my bigger card out there. And even if i flop two pair im now comitted to numerous bets on the flop to a hand that can easily be counterfitted or outdrawn against numerous players. If i would never play this hand out of the blinds why should i play it against alot of players in the worst position? And you find yourself in difficult decisions by playing a hand like this where you will not be sure where you stand when you flop something. I fold in these spots even with lots of callers. And i here the same thing all the time. HOW COULD YOU THROW THAT AWAY? They say i don't care if its 72 off im playing. And i always think. 72 off is bad enough now i need to beat a large field with it? What flop can i like? Again unless its trips its very vulnerable. So what do you guys think?

At home I play 20-40, out here in Vegas(where I've been the last 6 weeks) playing 30-60, I put the chip in EVERY time. Doesn't matter what I have, how many or few players are in(except a couple of times head up in the blind, with a really bad hand against an aggressive player in the bb). I'm pretty sure that HPFAP advocates this---of course you have to play well after the flop....I've flopped top pair no kicker checked and mucked for multiple bets, you don't have to get tied on to hand but you will occassionally get tied on and lose to hand that you wouldn't normally play, BUT you will win some hands too, in my first week here with 8-2o in the small blind flop came Q-7-2: check around; turn: 8 I bet and get one caller; river 2(or 8, I don't remember): I bet, caller shows me Q-7s!!!

Even though I've spent much more time at the 1/2 blind structure, and I'm quite comfortable with it; I enjoy the 2/3 structure as it gives me an opportunity to play more hands, hey I like playing hands as much as anybody no matter how disciplined I've become. And I do believe that I have shown a profit for these situations. Okay, I'll shut up now.

Mike

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Pokerguy, I think you and I are the only 2 people in Vegas who don't routinely throw in the chip in the 15-30 game! Like you, I don't consider 99% of deuces-fives "playable" hands up front, and so I often muck with garbage hands. I believe Mason suggests playing all hands with this blind structure unless the bb is superagressive. Babe

[Vince Lepore]

One chip in a 15-30 game = $5 or 1/6th of a big bet. Poker is a risk vs reward endeavor. One must consider all of the factors that will affect the out come of an action before making a decision if one would be successful. I also believe that one must be comfortable and confident with their decisions. Your post indicates to me that you have mainly considered the potential negative results of playing very weak starting hands. What could go wrong appears to be the driving reason behind not playing very weak starting hands. I believe that it is correct for a successful poker player (since I know you are one, I am referring to you) playing in a manner that is psychologically comfortable for them. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Another way to view this issue is to weigh the good (reward) against the bad (risk). The problem is determing the EV of each action, calling and folding. Folding can be considered having "0" EV. So if you can prove to yourself that calling has a positive EV then perhaps calling would be more comfortable for you. I labeled my response "Great EV question for Sklansky". Maybe David can tell us the EV of calling one chip with hands like 7,2o or 9,4o, etc, with various numbers of callers.

BTW I call each and every time.

Vince

I throw in that chip every time unless the BB has a propensity to raise preflop. I do this for two reasons, first of all I think its a marginal situation with your worst hand (i.e. 72o) but it makes you look like a total rock, which is an image I don't like, if other players see that you are winning and they you don't call for one chip in the SB they might start thinking more about there preflop standards, and we all know that is a bad think /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Good luck,

Shawn

[mikelow]

I play all but the worst hands. I will fold 9-3off and 7-2
off. Any two suited cards is a play.

[Tommy Angelo]

"And i here the same thing all the time. HOW COULD YOU THROW THAT AWAY?"

Sometimes when the whole table is in and I'm about to fold from the small blind for one chip, I'll glance around at the bet-covered table and say, "What am I getting here? A hundred to one? Not enough." Then muck.

This is a stretch, but I look at this as similar to choosing a philolable. If you call yourself an agnostic, then you are one. If you call yourself an atheist, then you are one. If you thinks it's right to muck for one chip, then it is.

Tommy

[andyfox]

I don't think a total rock image is that bad in hold 'em. I think I make a lot more money in my game getting people to fold when they shouldn't than worrying about whether people will call when they shouldn't because I'm a rock. I think you can fold your small blind for one chip a hundred times in a row and then bet the river and you'll get called because you blinked your eyes funny.

Having said that, I'll generally throw in the one chip unless A) my hand is really bad; and B) there are one or two tough and/or post-flop aggressive players in the hand.

Generally will put in a chip into a multi-way pot if the players tend to be passive and pay-off type players. Also will avoid doing it with K, Q, J and a rag card - due to rev implied odds.

fyi it is about 30 to 1 against to flop trips and it is usually better to have trip 6's than trip J's with a bad kicker. Incidentally the odds of two people having trip J's in a 5-6 handed pot are suprisingly high.

[Ginogino]

Sklansky says (in "Getting the Best of It" in the chapter on playing in loose games) that there isn't a great deal of EV difference between playing the AKo and a JTs -- in any kind of game. His point is that the majority of one's wins and losses occur when one is playing undercards (the JTs, for instance) against an overpair (AA, KK, QQ).

What this means to me, I think, is that it isn't a good idea to play dominatable (is that a word?) hands from bad position -- unless the hand has the possibility of becoming a powerhouse (meaning flush or straight) or a powerhouse draw on the flop. Otherwise you are taking a chance that you are dominated by a player with position on you. When you are small blind, you are in that position relative to all the other players. Though it is unlikely, given the pre-flop betting, that anyone is holding a major pocket pair, (a) we have both seen weak tight players limp with pocket aces and kings, and (b) in a multi-way pot, there is a strong likelihood that someone has hit a (relatively) dominant hand with every flop. When I play an iffy hand, I always seem to a board which at every chance gives me the worst possible hand I'd want to call an extra bet with. Who needs it? Perhaps with connectors or suited cards -- but otherwise I'd fold happily (and start watching the other players).

[Pokerguy]

But i just think your going too way up hill with this junk. Its like would you play k10 off with 3 limpers in front of you in middle to late position for 3 chips? I know i wouldn't becasue it doesn't play well against a large field. And has much more a chance to be dominated by a better king. Not because the 3 chips cost too much to see flop but how i may get in trouble playing such hands. Just becasue its one chip everybody acts like its only a chip i don't need to look. But its the money you lose after you put that one chip in and flop something. Look at your example one miracle on the turn wasn't even enough you had to hit another one on the river. I feel like i'm being offered a cheaper entry fee into the indy 500 but i'm driving a yugo.

[Pokerguy]

I think your right about us being the only 2 that throw away. Actually if i'm on massive tilt i lose control and put the chip in once in a awhile.

[Pokerguy]

Well, I look at the good and the bad with all hands. I just feel more bad can come than good with the bad hands. And cause bigger swings. Where some of these hands maybe can be played with a positive ev, but just a small positive ev but cause big swings. And if people find it hard to play there best game when they're get stuck sometimes(like me and most) this is a way to avoid such swings. And i'm sure the positive ev is only positive if played very well postflop. These are hard hands to play correctly becasue you will be flopping marginally so often. You'll have alot more guessing to do on where you stand. If it was shown that these are big positive ev plays i would reconsider. I would like to hear if they are as well. Good post Vince!

I think that it's about 70 to 1 to flop trips w/ two unpaired card....50 to 1 to flop two pair.

Mike

One must consider all of the factors that will affect the out come of an action before making a decision if one would be successful.

Wow! The game must be very slow when a successful player is at a table.