My B&M insight

[sfer]

Games with 4 chip small bets and 8 chip big bets effing rule. Discuss.

Why does Foxwoods have those dreadful yellowchips? 4/8 with all white and racks and racks of chips would rule. Why doesn't scrub just start runnning a poker room good and proper?

EDIT: For clarity.

[Evan]

The yellow chips at 4/8 are not nearly as attrocious as they are at 2/4.

[tylerdurden]

more chips = more action, no doubt. Of course, there's a point of diminishing returns. Playing 20/40 with $0.50 chips would make for (physically) huge pots, but it gets a little difficult when you cap the turn. Plus it takes forever to stack after you win a pot. On the other hand, you can make some awesome chip castles.

[shant]

This is very true. The 4/8 games at Commerce have the most action ever. I won an almost 4 rack pot once that took forever to stack. A whole table covered in chips gets everyone trying to win it.

[Luv2DriveTT]

Personally I prefer 3 chip/6 chip games. While we are on the topic I think blinds of 2 chip/3 chip (ala 15/30) rule.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[jar]

I like the 4/8 with yellow better than what I've seen in the Trop 4/8. If you're gonna play 4/8 with white, you can't allow red on the table. I agree that the yellow 2/4 is atrocious.

[jacki]

for an inexperienced casino guy, what's the difference /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[MowrMowr]

[ QUOTE ]
for an inexperienced casino guy, what's the difference /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

More chips = illusion of more action = more action from the action-prone

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
for an inexperienced casino guy, what's the difference /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Apparently fish are unable to distinguish between the monetary value of chips and the quantity of chips. A lot of chips = fishiness

[frank white]

i'll take 10 blacks over 100 whites anyday of the week.

[IsaacW]

Me too... ten blacks is a grand, boss, and 100 whites is just a c-note.

[BottlesOf]

I like that structure for the other players, but not for myself. When I play 20 at Borgata, I will buy in for all blue, until I'm convinced that I shouldn't.

[shant]

i'll take 362 purples over 49 whites anyday of the week.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I like that structure for the other players, but not for myself. When I play 20 at Borgata, I will buy in for all blue, until I'm convinced that I shouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't.

It hurts the game and confuses stupid people, and it slows things down when the superstitious people try to sell them to each other to get their stacks even and stupid stuff like that.

Just learn to be cool and play in red.

scrub

[BottlesOf]

If I find that to be the case I will probably stop. I need to see exactly how stupid these people are before I'm convinced that chips with twice as much value will dumbfound them and damage the game.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I like that structure for the other players, but not for myself. When I play 20 at Borgata, I will buy in for all blue, until I'm convinced that I shouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lame. Possibly even gay. Focus more on getting to the 40 for your precious blue chips.

[BottlesOf]

Whatever you do, don't post anything with content.

[BottlesOf]

Just a bit of a follow up. I'm a 50 bb guy, and managing 4 racks of chips seems cumbersome, unecessary and the potential to be disasterous should I drop something. Also, if I somehow have a winning session then I may have to deal with 5 or 6 racks. How do you 20 guys deal with this glut of chips?

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like that structure for the other players, but not for myself. When I play 20 at Borgata, I will buy in for all blue, until I'm convinced that I shouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't.

It hurts the game and confuses stupid people, and it slows things down when the superstitious people try to sell them to each other to get their stacks even and stupid stuff like that.

Just learn to be cool and play in red.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have to agree with scrub here. I've seen all kinds of wacky chit going on in that game. People getting superstitious having blue chips mixed in. People wanting to get rid of blues because of that superstition, or they just don't like the "mix of colors" as it "bothers" them.

Personally, I don't really care...and it does add to the humor of the game, but all reds makes the pots seem bigger and people chase more. But at the Borgata...we could use blues and have 5 chips in the pot and they'll still chase it like its a million. So I guess its moot, except when all the superstition causes a delay of game...hands/hr is slow enough, don't need it to be any slower.

Although I do like playing with greens as it makes 4 chip turn and river raises in 20/40 easy and baffling, as your opponent will often peer out making sure its really a raise to him/her. Sometimes allows you to collect more info that you might otherwise lose while counting out N stacks. But some of you are talented and do not find that to be challenging. I, on the other hand, am dumb and lazy and like to make betting as easy as a mouse click, which I am naturally more accustomed to! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a bit of a follow up. I'm a 50 bb guy, and managing 4 racks of chips seems cumbersome, unecessary and the potential to be disasterous should I drop something. Also, if I somehow have a winning session then I may have to deal with 5 or 6 racks. How do you 20 guys deal with this glut of chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

JBB, there is no reason in a live game to buy in for 50BBs. The pace is much slower and your chips will last much longer...well maybe not yours, but... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cut it down a bit, 25 or 30 is fine IMO.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]

Lame. Possibly even gay. Focus more on getting to the 40 for your precious blue chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well JBB does have a job now I hear...although I suspect this may be a fairy tale.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever you do, don't post anything with content.

[/ QUOTE ]

sfer's posting SOP, I find it quite amusing and entertaining! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[BottlesOf]

See, online, I buy in for the standard 25, b/c it's so easy to reload. Live, I don't want to be bothered with having to go to the cage, wait online whatever. Buying at the table DEFINITELY slows the table down, not only when you're buying but the need for more frequent fills. Plus they won't sell you enough at the table and you may just have to buy again, thus slowing the game further. I like being deep--I don't see me changing my B&M buy in from 50 to 30 or 25.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if I somehow have a winning session then I may have to deal with 5 or 6 racks. How do you 20 guys deal with this glut of chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

My spray and lose strategy makes carrying chips back to the cage a breeze.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever you do, don't post anything with content.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought outing yer ass counts as content.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
See, online, I buy in for the standard 25, b/c it's so easy to reload.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously you are reloading too much, that might be your problem! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Damn NYC LAG chip spewers! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[edtost]

JBB,

if you really don't think two racks is enough chips, just mix in a stack of green (totaling 1400). people seem to not mind that nearly as much as blue, although i would still tend to think its unneessary.

[turnipmonster]

not as lame as selling out and not going drinking!

note: evan seems to have a jedi mind trick which confuses them into not carding him.

--turnipmonster

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
note: evan seems to have a jedi mind trick which confuses them into not carding him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah. They're just looking out at their eye-level. They don't see him.

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
Buying at the table DEFINITELY slows the table down, not only when you're buying but the need for more frequent fills. Plus they won't sell you enough at the table and you may just have to buy again, thus slowing the game further.

[/ QUOTE ]

buying from other players doesn't slow the game down and is fairly commonplace.

[BottlesOf]

You thought wrong, prag.

[sfer]

I accept that as an admission of your homosexuality.

[BottlesOf]

I accept that as an admission of my owning you.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I accept that as an admission of my owning you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exciting. What do you want to compare as the final arbiter? Peen length, paycheck, or the ability to do laundry with no outside assistance?

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I accept that as an admission of my owning you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exciting. What do you want to compare as the final arbiter? Peen length, paycheck, or the ability to do laundry with no outside assistance?

[/ QUOTE ]

Where can I cash in the stock I bought in "this thread will degenerate into the NY guys trying to pwn each other"?

[BottlesOf]

How about the outcome of our hands played against each other in live ring games or online tournaments? Perhaps the impact I have on your psyche, that which comepls you to reply to my post in such a way that doesn't address my points but rather calls something "lame" or "gay" with 0 explanation. I'm in your head, prag. You don't like it. You'll learn to live with it.

[BottlesOf]

Outstanding avatar and location, btw. Prag.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Outstanding avatar and location, btw. Prag.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to feel bad for Evan when I read all of the short jokes made about him, until I found out his Poker Stars name.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
See, online, I buy in for the standard 25, b/c it's so easy to reload. Live, I don't want to be bothered with having to go to the cage, wait online whatever. Buying at the table DEFINITELY slows the table down, not only when you're buying but the need for more frequent fills. Plus they won't sell you enough at the table and you may just have to buy again, thus slowing the game further. I like being deep--I don't see me changing my B&M buy in from 50 to 30 or 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bringing 50 bets is lame, but if you're going to do it buy two racks of red and two stacks of green, then sell the green for red if you need to--for whatever reason the dealers will let people play out of very short stacks with paper under them, changing the paper for green during the hand, so there's green on the table anyway. Most people end up with some green and are less confused by trading it for red.

scrub

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
Although I do like playing with greens as it makes 4 chip turn and river raises in 20/40 easy and baffling, as your opponent will often peer out making sure its really a raise to him/her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or, to put it another way "green slows down the game."

scrub

[sfer]

I'm tired so I don't feel like it today. I was out after playing last night. Remember that last night? No? That's right, you went home to your parents' to go to bed while the non-children (Evan included) went out and had a couple of drinks.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Although I do like playing with greens as it makes 4 chip turn and river raises in 20/40 easy and baffling, as your opponent will often peer out making sure its really a raise to him/her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or, to put it another way "green slows down the game."

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Touche, but advantageously so...for me, and that's what I care about! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

And we are talking mere seconds of delay, not minutes of thinking (aside from the drunken bastards that generally have trouble adding sober and need the dealer to do any chip addition > 1 chip).

As an addendum...it is easier and quicker to stack fewer blues/greens than it is reds, so perhaps that offsets the relative game delay inducing raises with off color chips? /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Note the time for drunken bastard to stack a multitude of chips seems to increase exponentially over time (into their session) and therefore also increases delay into the game.

Or, to put it another way "red slows down the game."

[MRBAA]

I made a short-term +EV move by "forgetting" to pay for my beer last night -- someone has $10 coming.

[BottlesOf]

Ohhh I don't want to go for drinks, I want to just go home and relax and sleep, I'm so lame, blah blah blah...

gggggggggggimme a break...

[BottlesOf]

W000t!

Bottom line is, I'm not playing 20 for a lil while. When I do, I'll try buying in for various color combinations and amounts until I figure out what works best for me and the rest of the table.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Ohhh I don't want to go for drinks, I want to just go home and relax and sleep, I'm so lame, blah blah blah...

gggggggggggimme a break...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Running home to the parents when it's clearly EMillerTime is lame.

[turnipmonster]

you left almost a full glass there which I later drank. I hate wasting beer /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[private joker]

Yet another reason West Coast > East Coast.

The 8/16 at the Bike is another action heavy game with 4/8 structure of green chips (Bike's greens are $2 -- actually, they are greenish pink, and quite ugly), but I've never played in it. The 6/12 (same chips, 3/6 structure) is one of the softest games I've ever had the pleasure of running over. Still enough chips for action, but the level of skill is equivalent to Party 1/2.

And I second the love for Commerce 4/8. You can build mountains of chips if you want, or color up like a nice guy.

[lefty rosen]

Your an idiot those games suck. If a guy reraises an old guy it takes him a million years to count out 24 chips or 16 on the turn or river. The games are as slow as hell.........

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
Your an idiot

[/ QUOTE ]

This is being quoted for two very different reasons. I'll let others elaborate.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Games with 4 chip small bets and 8 chip big bets effing rule. Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't really insight; this has been well-known for a long time. If you go somewhere like the Borgata you'll see that the 20/40 game is played primarily with $5 chips (yes, I see the arguments elsewhere in the thread) while the 40/80 is played primarily with $10 chips.

The other day, I played in a 30/60 game with 50/100 overs. I was the only one without an overs button, so before I joined, it was essentially just a 50/100 game from the flop on. There was a guy there with nothing but red chips. Lots of them. Now that's ridiculous. (Also, the comment on this thread about playing 20/40 with blue chips really confused me at first because I forgot that on the east coast, blue chips aren't $1).

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Games with 4 chip small bets and 8 chip big bets effing rule. Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't really insight; this has been well-known for a long time. If you go somewhere like the Borgata you'll see that the 20/40 game is played primarily with $5 chips (yes, I see the arguments elsewhere in the thread) while the 40/80 is played primarily with $10 chips.

The other day, I played in a 30/60 game with 50/100 overs. I was the only one without an overs button, so before I joined, it was essentially just a 50/100 game from the flop on. There was a guy there with nothing but red chips. Lots of them. Now that's ridiculous. (Also, the comment on this thread about playing 20/40 with blue chips really confused me at first because I forgot that on the east coast, blue chips aren't $1).

[/ QUOTE ]

There's apparently a place near Palm Springs that has a 25/50 with a full kill that plays all in nickels--that seems silly to me.

I'm not saying that higher chips structures are always better. I'm saying that 3/6 and 4/8 chip structures provide a great balance of pot size, tactile fun, and manageability.

Places that only allow one color denomination on the table for each game and use 3/6 or 4/8 structures for every game in the room have the fastest games I've played in. For whatever reason casinos that have always used rational chip structures seem to end up with patrons (even the old guys) who can handle their chips right and don't develop silly superstitious habits like playing with 2 bets in chips and 40 bets in paper.

Things get weird in cardrooms that have inconsistent chip structures as you move up in limits and allow mixed denominations and paper to play.

JBB, for instance will not have played in a Borgata game with a decent chip structure before he gets to 20/40. 2/4 and 3/6 play in a bizzare mixture of $1 and $5 chips. 6/12 plays with an even weirder mixture of $1 and $5 chips. 10/20 plays in $5 chips. So, before players hit 20/40 in Atlantic City, they don't learn to cut out 4/8 structured bets. It's not a surprise that rooms that don't train their patrons to handle a 4/8 chip structure before they get to 20/40 have 20/40 patrons that don't handle their chips well.

scrub

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
(Also, the comment on this thread about playing 20/40 with blue chips really confused me at first because I forgot that on the east coast, blue chips aren't $1).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I couldn't figure that part out either. In Washington, I think I've only seen $1 white chips.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(Also, the comment on this thread about playing 20/40 with blue chips really confused me at first because I forgot that on the east coast, blue chips aren't $1).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I couldn't figure that part out either. In Washington, I think I've only seen $1 white chips.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are two major casinos within driving distance of Seattle. One, Muckleshoot, uses white $1 chips. The other, Tulalip, uses blue $1 chips. I play at Muck much more, so if you ask me to visualize a $1 chip, I see white. But the only blue chips I ever see are $1 chips, so when someone makes a reference to blue chips, $1 is still my interpretation.

[nolanfan34]

I'm down in Olympia. So I've been to the Muck, but see no reason to drive to Tulalip. All of the rest, Silver Dollar, Chips, Little Creek, use white too.

Come to think of it, Cal-Neva in Reno had $1 blue chips, and they were the nastiest, dirtiest chips I'd ever seen.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm down in Olympia. So I've been to the Muck, but see no reason to drive to Tulalip. All of the rest, Silver Dollar, Chips, Little Creek, use white too.

Come to think of it, Cal-Neva in Reno had $1 blue chips, and they were the nastiest, dirtiest chips I'd ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a man who's never been to the Taj.../images/graemlins/smile.gif

scrub

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]

note: evan seems to have a jedi mind trick which confuses them into not carding him.

[/ QUOTE ]
I rule.

Do you ever get carded anymore? This is being serious, you look like you could be under 21 dude.

[MaGi]

I am just the opposite, I buy 25 @ B&M because that is an appropriate buy in, and I buy in 50 online because I am 4 tabling and not having to think of rebuying is one less distraction. If I am getting short stacked in a live game, I can easily rebuy before I will actually need it

[jrobb83]

[ QUOTE ]

There's apparently a place near Palm Springs that has a 25/50 with a full kill that plays all in nickels--that seems silly to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Casino Arizona spreads a 60-120 game with $10 chips. The number of chips on the table and the effort it takes to 3-bet the turn is pretty humorous.

[bobbyi]

I responsded before, but forgot to mention that although I like playing in a 4 chip/8 chip game (I play almost entirely 20/40), there is one big drawback: seat selection is very important to me and I end up moving around the table a lot as seats free up and other people move around. Moving four racks of chips is both inconvenient and very conspicuous. If our casino allows us to keep chips in racks, it wouldn't be so bad since I could have them always in racks and just slide them over, but there are no racks allowed on the table.

[Evan]

That is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

[dlk9s]

[ QUOTE ]
i'll take 10 blacks over 100 whites anyday of the week.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's racist. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[turnipmonster]

no, I never get carded anymore. every now and then I get carded buying beer at the grocery store, but never at bars. I don't think I look under 21 though.

--turnipmonster

[BottlesOf]

You don't. Evan clearly has a skewed perspective of the world from down there.

[BottlesOf]

I feel pretty similarly about an 80-160 game with $20 chips.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I responsded before, but forgot to mention that although I like playing in a 4 chip/8 chip game (I play almost entirely 20/40), there is one big drawback: seat selection is very important to me and I end up moving around the table a lot as seats free up and other people move around. Moving four racks of chips is both inconvenient and very conspicuous. If our casino allows us to keep chips in racks, it wouldn't be so bad since I could have them always in racks and just slide them over, but there are no racks allowed on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why you should build Barrymids--you can slide them all in one motion...

scrub

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I responsded before, but forgot to mention that although I like playing in a 4 chip/8 chip game (I play almost entirely 20/40), there is one big drawback: seat selection is very important to me and I end up moving around the table a lot as seats free up and other people move around. Moving four racks of chips is both inconvenient and very conspicuous. If our casino allows us to keep chips in racks, it wouldn't be so bad since I could have them always in racks and just slide them over, but there are no racks allowed on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why you should build Barrymids--you can slide them all in one motion...

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Pic please? What does the Barrymid look like?

[Evan]

4 chip/8 chip is vastly different than 6 chip/12 chip. 6 chip/12 chip is retarded.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I responsded before, but forgot to mention that although I like playing in a 4 chip/8 chip game (I play almost entirely 20/40), there is one big drawback: seat selection is very important to me and I end up moving around the table a lot as seats free up and other people move around. Moving four racks of chips is both inconvenient and very conspicuous. If our casino allows us to keep chips in racks, it wouldn't be so bad since I could have them always in racks and just slide them over, but there are no racks allowed on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why you should build Barrymids--you can slide them all in one motion...

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Pic please? What does the Barrymid look like?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's like the younger brother of Evan's picture.

You start out with $1k in nickels on the bottom, then build up.

scrub