ATo.

[bernie]

A /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif

I hate my overall play on the flop.

UB 2-4

Many sLAGs on this table.

Loosie limps UTG. Folded to me, I raise in the highjack seat. (CO1). Button calls as does the UTG. 3 to flop.

Flop: J /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG bets out(wide range here), I call, Button raises(could easily be position), UTG calls, I call.

turn: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to button who bets (wasn't just a position bet on flop), UTG and I call.

River T /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG checks, I bet, button thinks a bit, then folds, UTG folds.

b

[adamstewart]

Interesting.

Why did you bet the river?

Adam

[adamstewart]

I think the flop should have been folded.

(If you think that's weak, raising is the better play. Calling is the worst.)


My analysis:

You're getting 8.5:1 money when the action is to you on the flop.

Give maybe 2 outs for your three aces, 1.5 for the backdoor flush, and maybe 0.5 for the double gutshot (I feel this is being rather generous). That only gives you about 4 outs, which is not enough to call the 8.5:1 draw. Raising at least gives the possibility of pushing out the button and/or earning a free card on the turn.

Adam

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you bet the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because I didn't think my pair of tens was good enough for a showdown.

b

[me454555]

I dislike the flop call. After that I think you played fine.

[adamstewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why did you bet the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because I didn't think my pair of tens was good enough for a showdown.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

But you felt the other *two* in this pot would fold?

[bernie]

I agree with your analysis. I screwed the pooch on the flop. It was raise/fold. Probably more fold/raise. Right as I heard the 'click' of calling I asked myself what the hell I just did. Unfortunately, it wasn't a misclick. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
But you felt the other *two* in this pot would fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

After the flop fiasco, my brain unfogged on the turn/river. Given how I played my hand, I could easily represent a hand(s) that would make them fold. Or at least consider it. If UTG bets, I fold. When he checks, I know what he 'doesn't' have. So that frees it up for my 'possible' hand.

b

[krishanleong]

Check-fold the river. I think betting here is -EV.

Krishan

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I dislike the flop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pretty pissed at myself right after I did it. But then didn't have time to dwell on it as the turn card came in my favor. Kind of like a 2nd chance to make things right in the hand.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-fold the river. I think betting here is -EV.


[/ QUOTE ]

I felt I had a very good chance of winning with this bet. At least a good enough chance to bet it. If you didn't know my hand, what would you put me on given how I played it? What are the opponents seeing when I bet here?

btw...the only one Im really worried about folding is the button. If he folds, My chances go up quite a bit that now my pair might be good.

b

[afk]

I agree with Adam's reasoning that the flop should be raised. As for me, I most likely would have checked the river... but river play is something I've been working on so maybe a bet is best. I'm not sure about that.

[syphlix]

hrmmm

i think on flop.. either fold or raise.. i personally like raise... it mite drive out button... if he 3-bets you then you can start to worry...

i don't understand the call on the turn either... looks like u'd be getting about 7:1 to call... doens't seem like enough w/ an overcard and a gutshot w/ a 2-flush on board...

[j0n_blayze]

I agree with the flop raise cause this was raised preflop. I don't think that the button (with no strong read) would bluff this flop just on position making the river -EV. If UTG is gonna bet and u already called... buttons raise doesnt expect to scare people out and at least means a jack or a stonger draw than you have.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I most likely would have checked the river...

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking the river, you lose this hand, imo. Look at the board and how it was played by all players from preflop on. There is a really good bluff spot presenting itself on the river here.

Note: I wouldn't have just bet on any card hitting the river.

b

[j0n_blayze]

also ur runner runner straight draw is pretty much worthless with a potential flush draw out there. and this takes away from ur ace pairing as well.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't understand the call on the turn either... looks like u'd be getting about 7:1 to call... doens't seem like enough w/ an overcard and a gutshot w/ a 2-flush on board...

[/ QUOTE ]

Im openended on the turn.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the flop raise cause this was raised preflop. I don't think that the button (with no strong read) would bluff this flop just on position making the river -EV. If UTG is gonna bet and u already called... buttons raise doesnt expect to scare people out and at least means a jack or a stonger draw than you have.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your forgetting that many, many players will play 1 main hand like I did. Even though they should also raise that hand on the flop, many won't. This was my thought instantly when the river card hit.

[ QUOTE ]
buttons raise doesnt expect to scare people out and at least means a jack or a stonger draw than you have.

[/ QUOTE ]

When he bets the turn, it's unlikely the button is drawing. So I put him on a J. Now, what hands is he reasonably putting me on, that most players would play this way, when I call his turn bet?

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
also ur runner runner straight draw is pretty much worthless with a potential flush draw out there. and this takes away from ur ace pairing as well.



[/ QUOTE ]

If I had raised the flop and got it HU with UTG just calling, there'd be a decent chance I still had the best hand and that an A would be good if it hit.

b

[Freakin]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-fold the river. I think betting here is -EV.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the easiest part of the postflop play. You can easily release it for a raise, and most opponents will have a hard time calling w/o better than a pair.

Freakin

[Shillx]

Given the discription of UTG, I would raise the flop. If he were a timid player I would fold in this spot. Turn standard. On the river I think the bet will work often enough to make it profitable. Checking and calling isn't profitable as the buttons turn bet means he has at least a jack. By betting, you can rep AK (a hand that most people will play this way). You could also have a flush in this spot too but AK would seem to be the most obvious hand that you are representing.

Brad

[JackWilson]

I think hands like this are meant to make me feel dumb. Because I don't understand any of the post-flop streets.

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I most likely would have checked the river...

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking the river, you lose this hand, imo. Look at the board and how it was played by all players from preflop on. There is a really good bluff spot presenting itself on the river here.

Note: I wouldn't have just bet on any card hitting the river.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks bernie, I kinda gave that a thought as I made the post. But anyways, I like your bet. It's these kind of river plays that I'm learning to properly make now.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
It's these kind of river plays that I'm learning to properly make now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just remember some of the factors.

1] The likeliness of the player(s) folding. Here it likely helped to have the UTG still in.

2] What you can be representing to them by the way you played your hand. This can be tough as you may not realize what you represented. One reason it hit me here was that I knew no one else had the 'main' hand I decided I could reasonably represent.

3] What they aren't representing by their play. UTG checking the river, I thought there was a good chance he didn't hit his draw on the river. In fact, I may have him beat. I don't have the button beat.

I effed up the flop. I knew it right when I clicked the call button like a moron. But that doesn't mean you can't regroup and play the rest of the hand. Just figure, ok, now that I got myself into this one, what can I do? Use that error, if possible, to your advantage. Kind of like in golf when you blow one into the trees off the tee, then end up making a par anyways.

I could have easily represented the hand if I raised the flop, checked the turn, then bet the river again. Unless I chose to fold the flop, which was probably the best play at that point.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Because I don't understand any of the post-flop streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing is clear. I played the flop like an idiot.

The turn I have an openender. I can't semibluff here as I don't think the button will fold. Even to a c/r. I want to draw cheap at this point. If I c/r, what hand would I have that I'd play that way on the flop after preflop raising with given that there's only 3 of us and the pot is kinda small?

The river, I missed my hand. I know the button has me beat. I know UTG isn't on the flush draw. I know I won't win by checking and calling. Or I'd be really shocked if I was ahead of the button at this point. But since I represented throughout the hand, a hand that many would play that way, I can now represent it on the river. Especially since the other 2 opponents didn't represent that hand along with knowing what they 'don't' have. Which makes me more likely to have it.

With the extra person in, it also helps make my river bet look a little stronger. It looks like Im expecting to be called at least by the flop and turn aggressor since Im betting right into him. What hands are they putting me on the way I played it based on how most opponents play?

Hope this helps.

b

[bakku]

Hey Bernie,

I like the bet on the river as long as you have some kind of a read on the button.