QQ with a lot of limpers

[se2schul]

How do you play QQ in level 1 with lots of limpers in front of you? If I had JJ I'd limp for set value, but QQ is considerably better. Should I have raised more? I was seriously at a loss of what to do when action got to me. Raising more worries me that I'll only get called by AA, KK and maybe AK. Maybe I'm giving the $10+1 fishies too much credit.

Thoughts?
Thanks,
ss

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t755)
CO (t770)
Button (t775)
SB (t610)
BB (t690)
UTG (t740)
UTG+1 (t1095)
UTG+2 (t1030)
MP1 (t735)
Hero (t800)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t100</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls t90, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls t85, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds.

Flop: (t342.50) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t342.50) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, SB folds, UTG calls t200.

River: (t742.50) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t742.50

[Karak567]

I think you played it right. Were you called by a weak ace or a flush draw?

[spentrent]

In position I think you gotta bet the flop. Here's a thread where I was called a chicken, rightfully so, for raising QQ pre-flop then wussing out in position: (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1736777&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp; o=&amp;vc=1)

[se2schul]

[ QUOTE ]
Were you called by a weak ace or a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL If I told you what called me, you'd call this a "bad beat post" and then I wouldn't get my question answered.

Seriously though, I'm not posting this because I lost. I'm posting this because when action got to me, I wasn't sure how much to bet to drive 3 limpers out with the blinds still to act, and I wasn't even sure if raising was the right move. I really found this to be a tough decision.

The result was just as I wanted... I got called by an inferior hand. I'm just wondering if in the long run I'll typically get called by hands that dominate me.

ss

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
The result was just as I wanted... I got called by an inferior hand. I'm just wondering if in the long run I'll typically get called by hands that dominate me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only two hands dominate QQ, right? Lotsa flops fall without an A or a K, and when one falls, you can represent AK anyway-- at least if you get to act first or the action is checked around to you.

I think that if your long run only included 2+2 players and you only played the first 3 levels of a low buy-in Party game, then you'll probably only be called by AA|KK|AK...

[se2schul]

Hmmm... The difference between my situation and yours is that I had a bunch of limpers in front of me that likely had junk that I wanted to drive out. You re-raised someone the minimum amount with a hand that was good enough to open raise.

The thread you linked to does say a lot... it says that QQ is a very strong hand that should be played more like AA than like JJ. That would make raising correct, but how much?

I think that raising to 100-150 and you'd get called by a wide range of hands including TT, JJ, and Ax, which would be ideal. I fear that raising to 300+ would only get called by AA, KK and maybe AK.

I'm still confused /images/graemlins/confused.gif

ss

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that raising to 100-150 and you'd get called by a wide range of hands including TT, JJ, and Ax, which would be ideal. I fear that raising to 300+ would only get called by AA, KK and maybe AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your raise amount is fine. I like the (3 + X)*BB formula where X is the number of limpers in front. This could be improved. I remember Daliman posting his but I don't know where that thread is.

[Irieguy]

I had a very similar hand last night. I made it 180 chips to go and got 2 callers.

The flop didn't have an overcard, though, (J-8-4) so I bet for value and was check-raised all-in by a completely naked bluff with 10-2 off. I called and got 10th.

So to answer your question, I would raise as much as I thought I could to still get one caller... and that's usually quite a bit. Then I'd play after the flop basically just like you did. You may be able to get away from a pre-flop re-raise push from UTG... but at the $11's that'd be a mistake.

Irieguy

Irieguy

[BigJohn043]

The 3 + 1 time for every limper is a good rule of thumb. In the first level though sometimes you need to make it a little bit more given the low levels of the blinds. I would make it 150, but 100 is probably fine as well. Just make sure that you are putting in a big raise. Every time I do this I get at least one call...

My problem with this hand is your check on the flop. A bet of say half the pot will win this at least 50% of the time. You know that the overcard has fallen but they could easily put you on AK or AQ. You must make this bet. If someone checkraises you then throw it away. Even if Ax calls your bet you still have position and can check it through on fourth street and try to hit your set on the river.

Checking through just begs someone to make a play at the pot on fourth street that you won't be able to call.

[Jibbs]

I think you have to bet the flop here. You have position and you have represented a premium hand pre-flop. You are the only one that knows you don't have AK, AQ so take a shot at it. A 50-70% pot size bet probably gets rid of anybody with an A and bad kicker.

[Benholio]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you have to bet the flop here. You have position and you have represented a premium hand pre-flop. You are the only one that knows you don't have AK, AQ so take a shot at it. A 50-70% pot size bet probably gets rid of anybody with an A and bad kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a game full of good players, maybe. Do you think these guys are going to call a pre-flop raise with Ax and then fold it when they get their ace? If anyone is holding an ace, they are not going to fold.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
A 50-70% pot size bet probably gets rid of anybody with an A and bad kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no way you've ever played a SNG before.

Irieguy

[se2schul]

People at the $10 and $20 level will often fall in love with any ace. They'll call down someone's top 2 pair only to show Ace high.

That's exactly what I was affraid of... I thought it was likely someone called with Ax and wouldn't let go of the pot.

I think if I could do the hand over, I'd play it harder preflop. I think that at the $10 level, I should've played QQ as though it were AA preflop and not worried about all the limpers.

ss

[Drac]

I think your bet was good. Don't you want somebody to call with their AJ, 88, etc. at this point? Maybe you could pop it up to 150 but in the 11's I don't think that's really going to stop that one guy that will call 100 from joining the party. The other option is to limp, hope for a raise and hammer somebody with a reraise. You'll see a lot of people in late position try to buy a pot with 4 or 5 limpers with junk or a small/medium PP. If you don't get a chance at the RR you can get away from this hand darn cheap if the flop is scary.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
People at the $10 and $20 level will often fall in love with any ace. They'll call down someone's top 2 pair only to show Ace high.

That's exactly what I was affraid of... I thought it was likely someone called with Ax and wouldn't let go of the pot.

I think if I could do the hand over, I'd play it harder preflop. I think that at the $10 level, I should've played QQ as though it were AA preflop and not worried about all the limpers.

ss

[/ QUOTE ]

Good plan.

Irieguy

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you play QQ in level 1 with lots of limpers in front of you?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you take a formulaic (sp) approach to sngs, then I guess this question is good. I try to subscribe to the gigabet school where on one hand you realize that there is a monkey see monkey do formulaic way to beat almost any level of sng on party, you realize that you will have more intellectual stimulation and better results if you treat each situation for what it is worth.

So how do I play QQ with lots of limpers in front of me? Well I suppose I raise, but if I thought given the types of people at the table I could make more money doing something else, then I'd do that. For instance, there are a bunch of players who will push ANYTHING from the blinds if there is a limped pot. This usually happens at level 3... but my point is that good players (not just successful moneymaking players) will look at each situation and not really ask generic 'What do you do with xx preflop' questions.

[ QUOTE ]
If I had JJ I'd limp for set value, but QQ is considerably better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. If I recall, people on party like to limp with lots of hands, and none of those hands normally are ahead of QQ or JJ. So I'd say that you can safely raise both of those hands for value preflop most of the time without any worry. Sure, you will have to lay down JJ more often than QQ postflop, but if you are getting people to put in money when they are behind and stacks are very deep as they are early in a sng, then you win sklansky bucks and that is good... You just have to learn how to play well and disciplined postflop. That term 'playing well postflop' just means not giving excessive action when you are behind without the odds to improve.

So Im not sure about your argument that QQ is that much better than JJ here. It' s just harder to play.

[ QUOTE ]
Should I have raised more? I was seriously at a loss of what to do when action got to me. Raising more worries me that I'll only get called by AA, KK and maybe AK. Maybe I'm giving the $10+1 fishies too much credit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you should raise so that you can get the most money in the pot as possible when you are ahead. I think you should also note the standard line of limp-call for most $10 players with hands far worse than QQ. If you happen to run into AA or KK or AK oh well. You have no business playing scared though. The amount of times you get action from worse action makes it very easy to say 'oh well lets open another sng' when you run into a bigger hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your turn bet is interesting. Usually when I bet, I try to ask myself why.

So, why did you bet the turn? There are definitely positives.... If you are ahead, you prevent lower pairs from hitting a set (or charge them), and you also prevent hands like KJ or whatever (or charge them) from drawing to their three outer.

Of course, there are negatives. Mainly, a vast majority of the time, in a multi-way pot, you will only get called here by hands that beat you. Generally, that's a bad bet. With a hand you are not sure about like QQ on this board, a higher EV play would be to probably check the turn and perhaps pick off a bluff on the river. At least if your crazy $10 sng opponent bets into you on the river here there is a decent possibilty he is bluffing, whereas if you just bet, the chance that he'll call you with a hand you are beating only is great.

You could also bet the flop, but I'd say normally thats a horrid idea. The thinking is that the same person who limps with Axo utg and calls a nice sized raise will likely not be the type to flop a top pair and fold... ever.

I hope you ended up winning this hand, beating some sort of busted flush or straight draw, but I doubt you did by the tone of your post.

Good luck,
-Jason

[curtains]

I would bet something on the flop.

[Jason Strasser]

Why?

What exactly are you betting? Can you bet and fold to a raise? Wont an ace always call here? Doesnt a decent sized bet make you pot committed with a weak holding?

This aint heads up on the flop, its mutli-way. I have a lot of trouble believing a flop bet is good poker most of the time.

[curtains]

You can bet small here, if they dont have an ace they often fold. I dont have to bet the pot. An ace will call, but they dont have to have an ace.
Even though a smallish bet looks weak, that doesnt mean people have the guts to just check raise you with nothing. Meanwhile if you check the flop, it's much easier for one of these guys to just decide to bluff the turn, or to suck out on you somehow.

[Elektrik]

Excellent post. Thank you.

[curtains]

btw I dont think that checking is bad, I would generally bet like 125 though. I've definitely checked in this situation before.

[curtains]

Also I think the preflop raise is a good amount. Something like 100-125 would be my general preference here.

[raptor517]

great post strasser, you are a great asset to the 2+2 community.

[se2schul]

Thanks for all the replies.
Lots of good discussion and points to ponder.

Just for the record, I wasn't looking for *the one and only* way to play this hand... I'm more interested in learning about ways that I could've played the hand better. There was lots of insight. Thanks everyone.

The consensus seems to be to play QQ strong preflop.
Think post flop, and act accordingly. There are lots of options.

I know that a lot depends on the table texture. This was early enough in the game that I had no reads on anybody (except that they like to limp). There is no reason to think that this game is any different than your typical $10.

To Jason's very helpful post: I took a lot away from that. I'm still not sure if I would've felt confident raising big if I were holding JJ. I'm certainly not saying that raising JJ is wrong, but I'm also not convinced that limping with JJ is wrong either.

ss

[GimmeDaWatch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Were you called by a weak ace or a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL If I told you what called me, you'd call this a "bad beat post" and then I wouldn't get my question answered.

Seriously though, I'm not posting this because I lost. I'm posting this because when action got to me, I wasn't sure how much to bet to drive 3 limpers out with the blinds still to act, and I wasn't even sure if raising was the right move. I really found this to be a tough decision.

The result was just as I wanted... I got called by an inferior hand. I'm just wondering if in the long run I'll typically get called by hands that dominate me.

ss

[/ QUOTE ]


Uhhhhh, there's 2 hands in the deck that dominate you, and they will usually raise and if not you will be re-raised huge by EP limper. So yes, you are giving the $10 Party fishies wayyyyy too much credit. Otherwise, I think Id have played it pretty similarly.