Two TP bad kicker hands OOP.

[btspider]

hand 1:
MP3 is 32/10/1.8 after 120 hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

Semi coordinated board. Check and hope to raise an LP bettor with my no kicker hand.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks....

Missed draw will fold.. maybe he'll bluff if I check. I'm not sure if T9 type hands will call. I also may save a bet vs K7+.

---------------------------------------

hand 2:
MP2 is a 13/6 PT moneybags. Seemed decent.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

My kicker will likely play. Bet out on the more raggedy board.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero folds....

He didn't take his free card.. so I fold.

[Reef]

I don't see anything wrong with these hands.

[wrto4556]

The C/R on the first one was ugly IMO. I bet out, call a raise and C/F the river UI....matter of fact, just like the second one was played.

[Entity]

Both of these hands are perfect.

[BellyBuster7]

I don't understand why you check-raised one flop and lead out on the other. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Shillx]

Bet the river in hand 1 homie. Pretty straight forward value bet. If he has diamonds and folds, so be it. He will have lots of different hands here that will pay off fearing that YOU might be on diamonds.

Brad

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river in hand 1 homie. Pretty straight forward value bet. If he has diamonds and folds, so be it. He will have lots of different hands here that will pay off fearing that YOU might be on diamonds.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an opponent this aggressive, I much prefer a check/call.

Rob

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you check-raised one flop and lead out on the other. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

My kicker plays in the K53 board. Its less likely my opponents have 3x and 5x type hands, etc. If I bet, I can expect some folds from T9 and other type hands that missed terribly.

In the K96 board, my kicker will not play. The pot is the same size, but if I bet, hands like T9, 76, gutshots, etc are more likely to stay. An LP bettor may be more likely to have hit the board and be inclined to bet a weaker hand if its checked to him. If an EP player bets, I can play my hand as a 5 outer. If the board was J96 and my hand J4, check is probably more correct.

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you check-raised one flop and lead out on the other. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess to see the action first (am i right spider?), but I like betting to find out where im at more. I used to C/R TPWK when the last person bet, but it seemed to get me in trouble more times than not.

[Yerma]

"MP3 is 32/10/1.8 after 120 hands" what does this mean?

You have to bet the river in hand 1. If you c/r the flop, your poker logic is that you're gambling that you are likely to have flopped best. You have to follow through. His calls on the flop and turn don't change things enough that you should check. Also, if you check-call, you may induce a bluff but a 2nd pair or weak pocket pair won't bet into you on the river while a top pair+good kicker will. Since you'll always call the river, you'd rather bet and get some chips in against hands that you beat as well as the ones that beat you.

Hand 2 you should c/r the flop as well if the action is favorable. It's better to check and likely save the two full flop bets if the action comes down unfavorable than to spend the two flop bets even if you can get away on the turn. If you trap yourself into spending a full 3 big bets by c/r'ing, well that's gambling...it's worth it often enough.

[BellyBuster7]

[ QUOTE ]

My kicker plays in the K53 board. Its less likely my opponents have 3x and 5x type hands, etc. If I bet, I can expect some folds from T9 and other type hands that missed terribly.

In the K96 board, my kicker will not play. The pot is the same size, but if I bet, hands like T9, 76, gutshots, etc are more likely to stay. An LP bettor may be more likely to have hit the board and be inclined to bet a weaker hand if its checked to him. If an EP player bets, I can play my hand as a 5 outer. If the board was J96 and my hand J4, check is probably more correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, great explanation! Thanks.
(I have a long way to go at this game. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif )

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
"MP3 is 32/10/1.8 after 120 hands" what does this mean?

You have to bet the river in hand 1. If you c/r the flop, your poker logic is that you're gambling that you are likely to have flopped best. You have to follow through. His calls on the flop and turn don't change things enough that you should check. Also, if you check-call, you may induce a bluff but a 2nd pair or weak pocket pair won't bet into you on the river while a top pair+good kicker will. Since you'll always call the river, you'd rather bet and get some chips in against hands that you beat as well as the ones that beat you.

Hand 2 you should c/r the flop as well if the action is favorable. It's better to check and likely save the two full flop bets if the action comes down unfavorable than to spend the two flop bets even if you can get away on the turn. If you trap yourself into spending a full 3 big bets by c/r'ing, well that's gambling...it's worth it often enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this convinced me otherwise. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to bet the river in hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is simply not true against the opponent spider is describing. I think over the long run, you stand to make more by checking the river and encouraging your aggressive opponent to bluff at you with missed draws.

Rob

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have to bet the river in hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is simply not true against the opponent spider is describing. I think over the long run, you stand to make more by checking the river and encouraging your aggressive opponent to bluff at you with missed draws.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

at the time the guy was 24/10/2.0 so i thought he was much more solid than he turned out to be. a solid player would have a draw or a T9 type and fold both quite often.

i think with my hindsight stats/read, its pretty close against this opponent. If I had a read as tricky aggro, then checking is best. If he was straightforward, then i think i have a value bet here. He could find the courage to bet a better King if I check.

I think I'd probably bet at this point. Give him 2.5 or one instance of trickery and I'd check perhaps.

hand 1:
he checks A/images/graemlins/club.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.. wtf.. i thought he was decent at one point.

hand 2:
villian bets the river HU and takes it down without a showdown.

[Shillx]

How do we feel about 3-betting the flop in hand #2?

Brad

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
How do we feel about 3-betting the flop in hand #2?

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd probably prefer to stop-n-go.

think i gave up too quickly?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do we feel about 3-betting the flop in hand #2?

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd probably prefer to stop-n-go.

think i gave up too quickly?

[/ QUOTE ]

It really depends on how moneybags would play AcXc.

Rob

[Shillx]

Well we are in a bad spot when we just call the the flop raise with hopes of spiking an 8.

If he is raising for a free card, it is worthless for us to check to him on the turn. If he is raising the flop with something like 99 (which I feel is what is going on here) then we are making a bad fold. He might even raise the flop on a draw and then bet the turn if he feels like he has fold equity (per se SSH).

I guess what I'm driving at is, what are we looking for on the turn? What is your plan if you hit on of those cards? A king might be the toughest card of all to play so what is your plan if you hit trips?

We surely can't check the turn (if we hit) if we fear that he might take a free card. But then why don't we bet the turn UI and see how he reacts. If he raises again we can lay down. If he just calls, we can check/call the river if it isn't a /images/graemlins/club.gif. Ugh this hand proves how important position is. Bad cards + position will hold its own against good cards OOP.

Brad

[me454555]

Hand 1: I try this line sometimes, otherwise I bet just bet out. I don't think either is right or wrong though.

Hand 2: Bet the turn, don't let him take a free card. Fold if he raises you. This is a bad fold IMO

[DeathDonkey]

Yes I think you gave up too quickly. I also like 3 betting the flop more than I like a stop n go, but I hardly ever stop n go.

-DeathDonkey

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I think you gave up too quickly. I also like 3 betting the flop more than I like a stop n go, but I hardly ever stop n go.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

the biggest problem i have with a 3-bet here is that he'd be correct to cap many hands that i beat *and* could still take a free card. i think a stop-n-go is much better here.

[Shillx]

I dunno it is pretty rare to find a good player who will cap a flush draw 3-handed. Unless he has a pair and a flush draw, I don't think he will be capping. A cap means that we slow WAY down on the turn and check/fold unless it is kind to us. Either way, we spend 2 BB when we are beat (and the 3-bet might knock out the MP caller which is nice if we are ahead).

Brad

[AngelicPenguin]

Could you explain what the stop-n-go is trying to accomplish?

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you explain what the stop-n-go is trying to accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

a stop-n-go or flop 3-bet would prevent the flop raiser from taking a free card.. say if he had a flush draw.

[Jingleheimer]

I enjoyed this thread a lot. Taking into account your kicker in relation to the rest of the board is something I am working on.

Although spider nailed it by discussing when his kicker plays as to how to value and play his hand, I was strongly reminded of Ed Miller's discussion of Hidden Outs and worked through these hands as an exercise to show it:

(Did these quickly, probably not all perfect)

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>K5 on a K96J board
If opponent has you have outs to win to chop
K2 3 38
K3 3 38
K4 3 38
K5 0 44
K6 0 6
K7 3 23
K8 3 19
K9 3 0
KT 3 0
KJ 0 0
KQ 3 0
KK 0 0
KA 3 0



K8 on a K352 board
If opponent has you have outs to win to chop
K2 9 0
K3 6 0
K4 37 0
K5 3 0
K6 41 0
K7 41 0
K8 0 44
K9 3 0
KT 3 0
KJ 3 0
KQ 3 0
KK 0 0
KA 3 0
</pre><hr />

So you can see that when your kicker is lower than the board, you are pretty screwed. And when yours is higher, you're in much better shape. In a nutshell, as spider said if your kicker doesn't play you are most likely hurting.

J

[KingOtter]

Thanks for posting these... I learned something here.

KO

[btspider]

Here's another one from my first 3/6 session.

hand 3:
MP1 is 77/13/.76
Button is 50/9/1.3

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, Button calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB
<font color="#009B00">Main Pot: 10.50 BB, between MP1 and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="#FFFFFF">Pot won by Hero (10.50 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Ks 7c (two pair, kings and threes).
MP1 has Jh 9s (two pair, nines and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.50 BB. </font>

[Shillx]

Nice hand dude. Good luck at 3/6, I'm sure you will destroy it. Also less tough players to contend with @ 2/4. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Brad