Betting AKo unimproved into 3 opponents from SB.

[A_C_Slater]

Paradise 1/2 full ring game.


UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls,2 folds, AC raises with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif in SB, BB folds, limpers call.


4 players---FLOP: J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

The flop looks pretty ragged. I used to auto-bet in this situation, but I've been getting burned a lot lately betting AK high unimproved. Is a bet here standard? If there was only two I feel that there is no question, but three...? What say you?

[Stuey]

I’m not a good enough player to be giving advice yet. But this is how I would look at it. This is straight out of SSH so I might be misusing the information.

The positives

1. The pot is big
2. There is a chance no one hit this flop. And it is not likely anyone has an OESD.
3. You have shown early aggression in the hand so the other players might fear you have a high pp. So betting now could win now or buy you a free card on the turn. And most likely narrow the field buy some outs plus find out what we are up against.
4. There is a backdoor gutst8 there.

The negatives

1. There is a flush draw on the board and you don’t hold a heart.
2. We have only 4 outs. Two overcards (1.5 outs each) and that one gap gutst8 (1 out).
3. We have the worst table position.
4. A check/call here puts us in a weaker position for the rest of the hand. And forces us to fold if UI on the turn. (I think anyway)
5. With three players still in the hand we will most likely have to go to the showdown in this hand.

This is the way I look at this away from the table. At the table I just bet and see what I learn the real tough part for me is on the next street. I would also be interested in any reads you had on your opponents. And your table image at the time. AKo and AKs are currently losers in my PT database. And that is after 15K hands so I certainly don’t play them correctly.

[SeeWillie]

Without reads and with so many players I voted check/call. I really would check and see what happened.

I would fold if there were an LP bet and raise, making it two back to me without odds for a 4.5-outer (non-/images/graemlins/heart.gif As & Ks, plus maybe .5 out for non-/images/graemlins/heart.gif runner-runner str8).
I might call 1 or 2 if the field had put in enough bets to make my 4.5-outer worth a call.
I would probably raise if someone in LP bets, to try to thin the field and maybe clean up my outs.

Basically, I don't want to put money in from bad position with no information.

EDIT: Hmm, as I typed I was thinking more players in the field. Tilt may be right not wanting it to get checked through.

[tiltaholic]

i'd bet it.

the pot is big enough for you to call one, so you might as well bet (and not give any free cards)

cr-ing an LP bettor is great, but you don't know if anyone in lp will bet...

[QTip]

I see no reason to bet this. No free card, really no info, not getting rid of anyone...why bet. These two overcards are a weak draw at best if not a reverse dominated trap. Too many opponents for this. I'd check and call if I was closing the flop action and check/fold a bet from my right. We just didn't hit here and have no draws. Ppt's big but why loose more chips?

[DeadManJay]

Thats two of us /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Who was the 3rd?

[pokerrookie]

It's only one small bet, you would almost certainly call down if someone else bet. Remain the aggressor. If you get raised, then call, and fold to a turn bet unimproved. If you can get two or even one to fold to your flop bet, you stand a good chance of knocking out the rest on the turn, though I usually will want to improve before betting the turn.

[droolie]

I bet this. Against three opponents we might be ahead. I like to represent a high pocket pair and keep them wondering instead of broadcasting overcards. I expect at least one player to fold routinely and and on a raggedy board we often will win right there. This cannot happen if we check. If someone comes over the top it usually means more given our preflop raise then if they bet from LP when we check. I suspect this play gets many better hands (bottom pair low pocket pairs etc) to fold when they would have bet had we checked.

The only advantage I can see to checking is that we can bluff the turn when a Q hits and we might possibly save a bet when we're behind.

This is close as when I'm up against 4+ players I probably check more often than I bet.

[tiltaholic]

i'm going to pick on your post because no one else is coming to the defense of betting this flop, and i don't know what multipoker is and that bothers me.

[ QUOTE ]
really no info

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. Who cares about info? I want to win the pot. if I check this, I give away more info than anything else...

[ QUOTE ]
not getting rid of anyone

[/ QUOTE ]

That is just not true.

[ QUOTE ]
These two overcards are a weak draw at best if not a reverse dominated trap.

[/ QUOTE ]

nothing has actually happened in the hand...i'm not worried about being reverse dominated just yet.

[ QUOTE ]
Too many opponents for this.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe. i can see this. if it was HU. i bet. 2 opponents. i bet. 3, more dicey. i still bet. 4. too many i think.

[ QUOTE ]
Ppt's big but why loose more chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

pot is big but you are talking about 1 small bet. if you check. you will never win this hand.

what percentage of the time do you think that everyone (3 opponents) will fold to a flop bet on this flop?

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
I see no reason to bet this. No free card, really no info, not getting rid of anyone...why bet. These two overcards are a weak draw at best if not a reverse dominated trap. Too many opponents for this. I'd check and call if I was closing the flop action and check/fold a bet from my right. We just didn't hit here and have no draws. Ppt's big but why loose more chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

Q, I think you are wrong here. You may not be ahead now, but you can't give a free card to someone drawing to a low set, a low 2 pair, etc.... If I were raised preflop, and bet into on the flop, and I was holding 5,5 in this hand, I would probably let it go. If I held a couple of suited cards here (not hearts) I let it go. There are too many hands people are right to limp with preflop, that should fold on a missed flop, even if you suspect the bettor might have only overcards. Every person you can get rid of improves heros chance to win the pot.

[pokerrookie]

I'm with you 100% here tilt. Have to bet the flop!

[QTip]

chances to win the pot...let's talk about that...

how many outs do you have? I give you 2 outs at best..maybe 2.5

You need 22/1 to even call, let alone lead and risk being raise. You're not going to shake 3 loose opponents with a flop bet.

This hand is over.

[Shillx]

With 4 people in the pot, we have about 21-22% equity in this hand. I would check. With the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif, our equity jumps to about 26%. So I would bet with the /images/graemlins/heart.gif and check w/o it.

Brad

[SeeWillie]

Holy [censored]. That's the closest I've come to having Brad SORT OF agree with any part of one of my posts. woohooo!

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]

how many outs do you have? I give you 2 outs at best..maybe 2.5


[/ QUOTE ]


Correct me if I am wrong, but we usually count outs when we are losing. A couple of callers of a preflop raise does not mean we are even behind at this point.

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
You're not going to shake 3 loose opponents with a flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are these opponents loose? How do you know? The OP didn't specify.

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]
I give you 2 outs at best..maybe 2.5


[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you get this number. I would at least consider the non heart A's and K's to be live. You can't assume they are in anyone's hands. And you can't assume that they have paired their X kicker already. Maybe I am missing something, but where does 2.5 come from.

[pokerrookie]

[ QUOTE ]


This hand is over.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are leaving money on the table. If you are automatically willing to fold post-flop unimproved on this hand, you might as well play it like suited connectors or a low pair. Play it as a drawing hand. I think this is weak tight.


And if this hand is really over, should we go ahead and muck it with our first action?

[hate]

seriously dude, what the hell? AKo wins 49% of the time for me, and I can tell you right now it probably wins 35% of the time without even pairing. When does fold equity enter your vocabulary? only one preflop caller? You're not the only one that's proclaimed the same weak-tightness with overcards, so I'm wondering where it comes from.

[QTip]

You check odds (pot odds, implied, reverse implied,effective,equity, equity edge, and EV) before every poker decision..you don't have much of anything here.

[QTip]

I'm assuming loose...

Just talked about what you don't have as far odds. The other thing you don't have here is PF Raise equity.. the bluff and/or semibluff(which a bet here on the flop wouldn't be considered a semibluff in my book) is worthless aginst loose opponents.

[QTip]

Here's where it comes from...

all you have is 2 overcards, no backdoor draws (a perfect hand for reverse domination in this case). You generally count an overcard as 1.5 outs. This would be 3 outs. However, in this case, I would lessen the value a bit because the threat of reverse domination is so high. A loose player will call Axos anywhere.

[QTip]

With this flop, I'd rather have suited connectors than AKos here. This is nothing more than a WEAK DRAW. You need to review overcard play in SSHE if you see this hand otherwise.

[QTip]

This is ridiculous...this hand is trash. The only way I'm even thinking of giving it a shot is if I'm the button...but nope..we're first to act for the rest of the hand. You can have this hand. Talk to me after the "tourist" catches 2 pair with their Ax and you lose 4 BB postflop and talk about how they'll call with anything. You need something more here first to ask...some form of backdoor draw.

[hate]

Subject to the fact that we are the only preflop aggressor, fold equity is large here. Why do you automatically assume we're behind here? You're playing this out here like a pair not hitting here makes this worthless, and you're discounting your already-discounted overcard outs. I don't see your play as anything except weak-tight. I guess from your comments you assume that anything except two-pair or better loses, which just isn't the case.

[tiltaholic]

would you say that:
the flop bet is good?
my backdoor draw changes anything?

general hand comment?

Absolute Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, SB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

[pokerrookie]

There is rarely a case when you are the lone raiser preflop that a flop bet with AK is not good, IMO. I might let up on the river here for fear of a raise. Looks like you have him beat or are splitting here.

[Stuey]

I don't like the river bet. I don't want to call a raise here. If I check and he bets I can call and feel not nearly as bad if I am beat. If the check induces a bluff it does not matter as I plan to call in anycase. I have no idea if this is the correct play.

[Dead]

Check-call the river.

Decent chance of your ace playing.

I don't bet here because you can't call a raise.

[tiltaholic]

yeah. as to the river bet...i'm not sure i like it either.
i have a hard time "inducing a bluff" and then actually calling in these situations. and i also push too hard w/overcards i find.

but i post this as proof that worse hands will definitely call (as i won the hand) and they will call all the way. i think villian would have raised trips on the turn (and won't raise if he has an eight). but, will he ever fold a better hand? i don't thinkso. maybe he folds TT or a better pair? i don't see it. meh.

but i do think the flop and turn are good.