In the Land of Oz

[Tommy Angelo]

I'm a Mirage guy. I've been playing there since they first opened that double bank of glass doors that leads through the rain forest that leads straight to that big hanging beckoning sign: POKER.

When Bellagio opened, I played there a dozen times during a couple trips over a couple years. I played $15-30 and $30-60, hold'em and stud. I stopped playing there altogether because 1) The lists were so long 2) The tables were so close 3) At LHE, I prefer $20-40 and $40-80 over $15-30 and $30-60 4) I determined that I'm a Mirage guy.

Two days ago, at 10:00 AM, I was at The Mirage, in perfect condition to play, but there was no game for me. So I walked over to Bellagio.

There was a $10-20 blinds NLHE game going, four-handed. I played in it for half an hour. A new $30-60 LHE game was announced. I went and locked up a seat. I saw David Sklansky walking by. I introduced myself and he smiled and said hi and then he said, "So how are the treatments going?" He was referring to a malady he had named after me. I told him I was recovering nicely. We laughed. We chatted some more. Then we sat down in a new $30-60 must-move LHE game.

We played for an hour before I was called to the main game. David and I saw one flop together. The game was six-handed. The cutoff openraised. I was on the button with AKo. I called. The small blind folded. David was in the big blind with J9o. He called. Three players. The flop was Q-J-x rainbow. Check, check, check. The turn was a jack. Check, check, check. The river was a blank. David bet, the cutoff called, and I folded. ADS'sHWG.

I was moved to the main game and after two laps there, a new $80-160 game was announced. I went and locked up a seat. So did David. We played in that game for an hour before David quit. We shared no flops. I quit an hour later and walked home to The Mirage.

The only hand of note from the $80-160 game was this one: I was on the button with pocket queens. Three players limped. I raised. Both blinds called. The initial limper reraised. The other two limpers folded. I called. The small blind made it four bets. The big blind folded. The initial limper made it five bets. I called. The SB called. Three players. The flop was J-x-y. The SB checked, the initial limper bet, I called, and the SB called. The turn was a blank. The SB checked, the initial limper bet, I folded, and the SB folded.

The highlights of this trip to Bellagio for me were:

1) Having the honor and privilege to chat and play with David Sklansky.
2) I liked the temporary poker room at Bellagio because I could maneuver easily and I could hear the music.
3) I paid a total of $12 for four hours of play. (Two $6 collections at $30-60.) I got the usual breaks for starting new games, plus, in the $80-160 game, they do the collection with time pots, and I have not paid a time-pot collection in like ten years. I've been lucky that way.

Tommy

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]

The only hand of note from the $80-160 game was this one: I was on the button with pocket queens. Three players limped. I raised. Both blinds called. The initial limper reraised. The other two limpers folded. I called. The small blind made it four bets. The big blind folded. The initial limper made it five bets. I called. The SB called. Three players. The flop was J-x-y. The SB checked, the initial limper bet, I called, and the SB called. The turn was a blank. The SB checked, the initial limper bet, I folded, and the SB folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't beleive you immediatly ran into someone else who used the cold call-4 bet move that you had patended just a day earlier in our 3/6 game!

[andyfox]

Ha-ha-ha
Ho-ho-ho
And a couple of tra-la-las
That's how we laugh the day away
In the Merry Old Land of Oz

'Bzz-'bzz-'bzz
Chirp, chirp, chirp
And a couple of La-di-das.
That's how the crickets crick all day
In the Merry Old Land of Oz.

We get up at twelve and start to work at one,
Take an hour for lunch, and then at two we're done,
Jolly good fun.

Ha-ha-ha!
Ho-ho-ho!
And a couple of tra-la-las,
That's how we laugh the day away,
In the Merry Old Land of Oz.

Ha-ha-ha
Ho-ho-ho
Ha-ha-ha-ha!
And a couple of tra-la-las
That's how we laugh the day away,
With a ho-ho-ho!
Ha-ha-ha!
In the Merry Old Land of Oz.

Pat, pat here,
Pat, pat there,
And a couple of brand new straws.
That's how we keep you young and fair
In the Merry Old Land of Oz.

Rub, rub here,
Rub, rub there,
And whether you're tin or brahz
That's how we keep you in repair
In the Merry Old Land of Oz.

We can make a dimpled smile out of a frown.
Can you even dye my eyes to match my gown?
Uh-huh!
Jolly old town!

Clip, clip here
Clip, clip there
We give the roughest claws--
That certain air of savoir faire
In the Merry Old Land of Oz! -- Ha!

Ha-ha-ha-
Ho-ho-ho-
Ha-ha-ha-ha-
Ha!
That's how we laugh the day away
In the Merry Old Land of Oz
And a ha-ha-ha
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
In the Merry Old Land of Oz
Ha-ha-ha-ho-ho-ho--

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I stopped playing there altogether because 2) The tables were so close

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked the Mirage much better also. However, how much closer can the tables get than at the Mirage?

b

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
When Bellagio opened, I played there a dozen times during a couple trips over a couple years. I played $15-30 and $30-60, hold'em and stud. I stopped playing there altogether because 1) The lists were so long

[/ QUOTE ]
Is the average wait for a table really longer at the Bellagio than at the Mirage? Last time I was there (Jan.) the two games that interested me were the 15/30 at the bellagio and the 20/40 at the mirage. At the mirage there would often be only one or two 20/40 games going with a bunch of people on the list and no one leaving. It felt like it could take hours to get a seat, although I don't know because I gave up other than the one time that I got a seat right away. When I was in that game, no one ever racked up and left and there were people who would consistently be gone for 45 minutes, come back and play two hands and then leave again, so seats just never freed up. When I came back another time, it was the same peple in the game, so I assumed that being fifth on the list meant I was never going to get to play. Even though the lists were longer at the bellagio, there seemed to be higher turnover and there were a lot more 15/30 games going, so I usually got a seat pretty quickly. Also, a lot more people would not be there or not take their seat when called, so being fifth on the list often meant you were first. Was this just a fluke? I ask because I actually would have rather played more of the 20 at the mirage instead of the 15 at the bellagio, but I didn't because it seemed to take so long to get a seat.

OTOH, having california pizza kitchen right there is fairly huge.

[HiatusOver]

I think you have lost your mind Andy

[andyfox]

Good read.

[Gabe]

andy, quickly try to delete this before everyone finds out you're senile! Hurry!

[elysium]

hi tommy

tommy i don't like the fold in the 80-160 with the QQ. the reason that i'm positive that you should not have folded is because the action that you folded to was very suspicious. you recently had a post titled cahoosion, and i'm sure that there wasn't cahoosion involved in this hand but....you know tommy, for the good of the game, you need to have at least a tinge of skepticism about your opponent's intentions. this one looks like they are teaming up trying to bowl you over by trapping on the pre-flop. that's clearly not what's happening, but that's what it might appear to look like to the field watching the action. you must call. although people may not, at the outset, intend to mimick the action that took place in this hand, they may nevertheless do so in some subsequent hand, just to see if they might be able to get tommy to fold again. in other words, the fold risks inducing collusion that never would take place had you not folded. furthermore, you might have folded the best hand.

i do not like the fold tommy. i am sure that you must call the turn. you're a master at folding correctly. i'm surprised to find this fold in a tommy post.

[na4bart]

don't listen to them andy. I know you now have them right where you want them.

[Tommy Angelo]

elysium,

I agree that this pattern smelled of collusion, in as precise a way as signalling-only collusion could ever occur. But the only way that my opponents could be logically suspected of colluding(and I hold no such suspicion)is if the initial limper had exactly AA, and his partner in the small blind knew so. If that were the case, then the hand was played for max profit for the team. Further, had I called on the turn, the SB could pin me for more with a raise, either there, or on the river. It would make no sense for them to collude to try to blow me off this particular hand because I'd been in the game plenty long enough to be well sized up by these excellent players. My image was beyond tight. It was like I was just watching from up close. For me to raise three limpers, it would be plainly horrendously bad poker for a collusion team to pick that hand to muscle me, that's because the chances were so big that I had AA or KK, and they had no reason to suspect that I would just up and dump QQ, or even AK, in a spot like that on the turn to one bet. If they were colluding, then he had to have aces. If they weren't colluding, then he really had to have aces.

Tommy

[Zeno]

And I thought I was the weird ONE!

-Zeno

[partygirluk]

Your AK hand seems like a mighty good argument for 3 betting preflop.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]

We played for an hour before I was called to the main game. David and I saw one flop together. The game was six-handed. The cutoff openraised. I was on the button with AKo. I called. The small blind folded. David was in the big blind with J9o. He called. Three players. The flop was Q-J-x rainbow. Check, check, check. The turn was a jack. Check, check, check. The river was a blank. David bet, the cutoff called, and I folded. ADS'sHWG.



[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. No 3-bet with ace-king when the cutoff openraised and you have the button? Seems like this would be an obvious reraise. Isnt it a usual for a good player to always reraise or fold in this scenario? At least that what the books and Sklansky say. Especially to make sure you get it heads up and force DS out in the BB. Also, wasnt Davids call with 9Jo. in the BB a little too loose?

Mike Emery

[Tommy Angelo]

"Your AK hand seems like a mighty good argument for 3 betting preflop."

I started not reraising with AK on the button now and then a while back. Not very often, but sometimes. I posted a hand about it a couple months ago, and David replied, saying that the non-raise preflop was "totally reasonable against tough aggressive $80-160 players." Below is my post and David's reply. Kind of amazing that it then actually took place with David in the hand!

Here is my entire post:

"Bay101 $40-80. Folded to guy on my right who raised. I was next in the cutoff with AK and called. The button folded as prognosticated, the small blind folded, the big blind called, and three of us saw this flop: K-8-8 rainbow. They both checked and I checked. The turn was a five. The big blind bet out, the middle guy called, and I called. The river was a 3. The big blind bet out, the middle guy called, and I called. The big blind mucked. The middle guy showed A5. AK good."


And here is David's entire reply::

"The tactics Tommy used in this hand are totally reasonable against tough aggressive 80-160 type players.The preflop call and the lack of a raise on the end can be justified against them. However against weaker, less agressive players, they can't be."

[Clarkmeister]

"wasnt Davids call with 9Jo. in the BB a little too loose?"

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Tommy Angelo]

"Wow. No 3-bet with ace-king when the cutoff openraised and you have the button? Seems like this would be an obvious reraise. ... At least that what the books and Sklansky say."

See the DS post in my other recent post.

"Especially to make sure you get it heads up and force DS out in the BB."

It's unlikely that I'll ever play with David again. And I had a feeling that either he was going to quit or I was going to get moved (to the main $30-60 game) soon, so looking back, I think that one of the reasons I did not reraise was so that I would get to share a flop with The David before I died. It wasn't a main reason. But it was in the mix somewhere.

Tommy

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that one of the reasons I did not reraise was so that I would get to share a flop with The David before I died.

[/ QUOTE ]


It's sort of reverse-cahoosion.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
"Your AK hand seems like a mighty good argument for 3 betting preflop."

I started not reraising with AK on the button now and then a while back. Not very often, but sometimes. I posted a hand about it a couple months ago, and David replied, saying that the non-raise preflop was "totally reasonable against tough aggressive $80-160 players." Below is my post and David's reply. Kind of amazing that it then actually took place with David in the hand!

Here is my entire post:

"Bay101 $40-80. Folded to guy on my right who raised. I was next in the cutoff with AK and called. The button folded as prognosticated, the small blind folded, the big blind called, and three of us saw this flop: K-8-8 rainbow. They both checked and I checked. The turn was a five. The big blind bet out, the middle guy called, and I called. The river was a 3. The big blind bet out, the middle guy called, and I called. The big blind mucked. The middle guy showed A5. AK good."


And here is David's entire reply::

"The tactics Tommy used in this hand are totally reasonable against tough aggressive 80-160 type players.The preflop call and the lack of a raise on the end can be justified against them. However against weaker, less agressive players, they can't be."

[/ QUOTE ]

Strange. I wouldn't want to do anything to make it cheap for DS to play against me. I would also like to get more money in with the best hand, and position.

[andyfox]

Alzheimers makes it hard to hurry.

[andyfox]

The worse part is the ten players at the table. You literally have zero room to your left or right. If you're fortunate to accumulate some chips, it's like playing in a phone booth. They limit the 40-80 to 9 players and it's a much more comfortable table. But at 20-40 and below, it's the pits.

[casinogosain]

I don't know what to do with this information.
-ash

[ QUOTE ]
Ha-ha-ha
Ho-ho-ho
And a couple of tra-la-las
That's how we laugh the day away
In the Merry Old Land of Oz

'Bzz-'bzz-'bzz
Chirp, chirp, chirp
And a couple of La-di-das.
That's how the crickets crick all day
In the Merry Old Land of Oz.

We get up at twelve and start to work at one,
Take an hour for lunch, and then at two we're done,
Jolly good fun.

Ha-ha-ha!
Ho-ho-ho!
And a couple of tra-la-las,
That's how we laugh the day away,
In the Merry Old Land of Oz.

Ha-ha-ha
Ho-ho-ho
Ha-ha-ha-ha!
And a couple of tra-la-las
That's how we laugh the day away,
With a ho-ho-ho!
Ha-ha-ha!
In the Merry Old Land of Oz.

Pat, pat here,
Pat, pat there,
And a couple of brand new straws.
That's how we keep you young and fair
In the Merry Old Land of Oz.

Rub, rub here,
Rub, rub there,
And whether you're tin or brahz
That's how we keep you in repair
In the Merry Old Land of Oz.

We can make a dimpled smile out of a frown.
Can you even dye my eyes to match my gown?
Uh-huh!
Jolly old town!

Clip, clip here
Clip, clip there
We give the roughest claws--
That certain air of savoir faire
In the Merry Old Land of Oz! -- Ha!

Ha-ha-ha-
Ho-ho-ho-
Ha-ha-ha-ha-
Ha!
That's how we laugh the day away
In the Merry Old Land of Oz
And a ha-ha-ha
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
In the Merry Old Land of Oz
Ha-ha-ha-ho-ho-ho--

[/ QUOTE ]

[elysium]

hi tommy

i'm covered in joint compound from 2 days ago, and on my way back to hit it again; you can't get decent wall preparation anymore tommy. if you want the job done right, you've got to do the dang thing yourself. they don't know from feathering. those guys don't even know how to paint.

2 days, 2500 bucks. that's all the know. with the hand out. tommy, there are no painters anymore.

you bring up some interesting points.

by the way tommy, do you know that our money is no good anymore? i went out to buy some furniture yesterday, and when i got home i tried to find out over the internet where the wood used in its manufacturing process came from. well, it turns out that all the good stuff comes from the rainforest. no big deal, right? no. no tommy. even though as i was buying it, i was trying to get the saleman to tell me that it was pure mahogany, now i'm calling him back trying to get him to tell me that it's high dense particle board with phoney veneer if possible. yes. yes tommy, the rainforest has nuetralized my wealth. i don't want anything anymore, unless it's pure junk, or a screwy painter who isn't like this, "gimmee, gimmee.'.

i'm covered in joint compound. i don't approve of what's going on in the rainforest, but it's not my fault.

well, if he doesn't tell me its junk, i guess i'll cancel the order. it looks like junk to me.

tommy, i'm in no position to advise you. whether you raise, call, or fold, i will still be covered in joint compound dust tonight, and we will still lose another 3 football fields of rainforest every minute, whether i sand or sleep.

i'm going to go work on those walls and ceiling now. nice tommy, nice. you know what i mean?

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
you know what i mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do. And that scares me.

A lot.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Tommy Angelo]

"you know what i mean?"

Possibly not. When you say "joint compound," construction is not what springs to mind. And when you grieve for the forest, well, my feeling is that all DNA past and present is created equally. This view is conducive to cohabitating the planet with other DNA vehicles, large and small. The bad news is, I mean, the good news is, I mean, the bad news is, I mean, the good news is, that I have a really good grasp on the fact that extinction happens.

You know what I mean?

Tommy

[andyfox]

.

[elysium]

hi andy

yeah....'all dna being equal,...'; ....did tommy say that? why that's the center of the written universe. and we heard it first!. takes it down. post of the year.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
......I mean, the good news is, that I have a really good grasp on the fact that extinction happens.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nirvana, in a sense.


Man is but a reed, the weakest in nature, but he is a thinking reed. There is no need for the whole universive to take up arms to crush him: a vapor, a drop of water is enough to kill him. But even if the universe were to cursh him, man would still be nobler than his slayer, because he knows that he is dying and the advantage the universe has over him. The universe knows none of this. Thus all our dignity consists in thought.

-Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 1670






-Zeno, The Stoic Scientist

[bigfishead]

Man you guys shoulda quit takin that Ozzly acid 2 trips sooner!

Trouble is...I identify with all of it!!