30+3: Top pair on rainbow flop- check/raise or value bet?

[AA suited]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP3 (t725)
CO (t913)
Button (t812)
SB (t770)
<font color="#C00000">BB (t740)</font>
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t770)
<font color="#C00000">HERO (t785)</font>
MP1 (t960)
MP2 (t755)

Preflop: HERO is UTG+2 with Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, HERO calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t30</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls t15, UTG calls t15, HERO calls t15.

Flop: (t130) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, HERO ???


no reads because of multi-tabling.

Which is better?
1) check to the preflop raiser and hope he takes a shot at the pot so i can check/raise?

2) value bet with a weak bet? How small of a value bet should it be in this situation? (1/3pot???)

[StepRightUp]

maybe I'm way off (always a good chance)...

I would bet pot and then fold to any raises. I'd be highly suspicous of any smoothcalls and would most likely check-fold the turn if they come.

love to hear thoughts by people more experience than me.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP3 (t725)
CO (t913)
Button (t812)
SB (t770)
<font color="#C00000">BB (t740)</font>
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t770)
<font color="#C00000">HERO (t785)</font>
MP1 (t960)
MP2 (t755)

Preflop: HERO is UTG+2 with Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, HERO calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t30</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls t15, UTG calls t15, HERO calls t15.

Flop: (t130) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, HERO ???


no reads because of multi-tabling.

Which is better?
1) check to the preflop raiser and hope he takes a shot at the pot so i can check/raise?

2) value bet with a weak bet? How small of a value bet should it be in this situation? (1/3pot???)

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this hand is the raise from the CO, even though it's a stupid min raise.

I'm not in love with my TPGK, so I would neither check/raise nor bet strong. I'd check and see what the raiser does, and be prepared to call for value all the way down.

This type of hand defines the difference between a smart/savy player and an unskilled post flop player. You have many more options than to just shove 'em all in one way or another on the flop or turn and hope you win. There's no need to take the betting impetus from the preflop raiser. Let him lead, it will be easier to play that way.

I'd try to play every street on this hand. I would not go broke.

Irieguy

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Which is better?
1) check to the preflop raiser and hope he takes a shot at the pot so i can check/raise?

2) value bet with a weak bet? How small of a value bet should it be in this situation? (1/3pot???)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm. I would bet 1/2 the pot. The CO min-raise pre-flop doesn't mean too much to me with no reads. You almost surely have a better hand than the two checks in front of you. You most likely have the best hand here unless CO has AQ or a KK/AA monster. Still, I'd like to make Ax hands, and second best hands pay to see a turn card. Even if the CO smoothcalls I would lead out on the turn (unless perhaps an A shows up). If he smooth calls a turn bet then I'm probably beat and will have to check/fold or check/call weak bets on the river.
Yugoslav

[spacemonkey57]

[ QUOTE ]

The problem with this hand is the raise from the CO, even though it's a stupid min raise.

I'm not in love with my TPGK, so I would neither check/raise nor bet strong. I'd check and see what the raiser does, and be prepared to call for value all the way down.

This type of hand defines the difference between a smart/savy player and an unskilled post flop player. You have many more options than to just shove 'em all in one way or another on the flop or turn and hope you win. There's no need to take the betting impetus from the preflop raiser. Let him lead, it will be easier to play that way.

I'd try to play every street on this hand. I would not go broke.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I always run into a lot of problems with these hands. Because of the low starting stacks at party, if you plan on calling down won't you have most of your chips in by the river anyway? That's assuming he doesn't minbet all three streets.

[Irieguy]

Ok, the main trouble I see people get into with taking the lead from a preflop raiser is the way that standard monkeys tend to play underpairs.

His min raise is essentially meaningless, but a PP smaller than Queens is certainly possible. If you bet the pot, most monkeys will figure that you probably don't have TP and that their underpair is good. So they will call sometimes, but raise often. The worse they are, the more they will raise.

In either case, you are now out of position without a good idea of where you are. But if you check to him, he will make his "continuation bet" or whatever with many hands including ace high and underpairs. You can call for value and let him be confused about where he is.

Now, with this setup, it's going to be much harder for him to disguise a real monster and you can get away when you are beat. If you are ahead, you will probably win a reasonable, if small, pot... which is perfectly fine when you are playing KQ from out of position against a raise.

I think most players make up their minds too readily on the flop. It's either "i'm ahead, let's get some chips in," or "crap, i'm beat, i'm done." It's ok to play poker instead sometimes. Think about what the possibilities are, how you would act if you had different hands, and how you may be able to take the pot anyways if things don't work out for you.

Irieguy

[Big Limpin']

Because there are no draws on the next street, and
because the min-bet guy seems like a tard, im inclined to check out to the field, and try to win money from hands weaker than my QK. I'd expect CO to take a stab at it on the flop, but probably just a weak (min?) bet. WOuldnt even TRY to put him on a hand. But theres a decent chance of him having an underpair in the hole that he will bet until told otherwise. So i dont tell him...not yet anyways. I dont think i checkraise, at least not on the flop.

Ideally, CO bets small, and perhaps one of the blinds calls also, with 3rd button. I call too. And check out on the turn...and hope for more of the same. I bet you have the best hand here, but i guarentee you are coming out ahead if you are getting 2:1 on your money.

And note: be on the lookout for people improving on turn /river. BAd cards to come: Aces (only over), small cards (possible small str8 from BB). I think they would have between 2 and 5 outs. Take those odds. Let the pot build itself, CO has shown he isnt a pro

As Irie said, you have a good chance of calling him down on every street with the best hand.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, the main trouble I see people get into with taking the lead from a preflop raiser is the way that standard monkeys tend to play underpairs.

His min raise is essentially meaningless, but a PP smaller than Queens is certainly possible. If you bet the pot, most monkeys will figure that you probably don't have TP and that their underpair is good. So they will call sometimes, but raise often. The worse they are, the more they will raise.

In either case, you are now out of position without a good idea of where you are. But if you check to him, he will make his "continuation bet" or whatever with many hands including ace high and underpairs. You can call for value and let him be confused about where he is.

Now, with this setup, it's going to be much harder for him to disguise a real monster and you can get away when you are beat. If you are ahead, you will probably win a reasonable, if small, pot... which is perfectly fine when you are playing KQ from out of position against a raise.

I think most players make up their minds too readily on the flop. It's either "i'm ahead, let's get some chips in," or "crap, i'm beat, i'm done." It's ok to play poker instead sometimes. Think about what the possibilities are, how you would act if you had different hands, and how you may be able to take the pot anyways if things don't work out for you.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your turn options after calling for value on the flop? Are you planning on check/calling 'til the river? When do you check/fold?

I'd figure he'd bet .5 to 1 pot on the flop. You call. Now you check the turn. Is an all-in bet the only bet you fold to? Or do you interpret strength from the fraction of the pot he bets on the turn?

[spacemonkey57]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, the main trouble I see people get into with taking the lead from a preflop raiser is the way that standard monkeys tend to play underpairs.
Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the response, I never thought about taking this line before with a hand like this. It makes a lot of sense.

[skipperbob]

O.K. Boys: Let me try to 'splain this!..This info is invaluable....Ignore it / Forget it / Argue with it (whatever) All at your peril /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, the main trouble I see people get into with taking the lead from a preflop raiser is the way that standard monkeys tend to play underpairs.

His min raise is essentially meaningless, but a PP smaller than Queens is certainly possible. If you bet the pot, most monkeys will figure that you probably don't have TP and that their underpair is good. So they will call sometimes, but raise often. The worse they are, the more they will raise.

In either case, you are now out of position without a good idea of where you are. But if you check to him, he will make his "continuation bet" or whatever with many hands including ace high and underpairs. You can call for value and let him be confused about where he is.

Now, with this setup, it's going to be much harder for him to disguise a real monster and you can get away when you are beat. If you are ahead, you will probably win a reasonable, if small, pot... which is perfectly fine when you are playing KQ from out of position against a raise.

I think most players make up their minds too readily on the flop. It's either "i'm ahead, let's get some chips in," or "crap, i'm beat, i'm done." It's ok to play poker instead sometimes. Think about what the possibilities are, how you would act if you had different hands, and how you may be able to take the pot anyways if things don't work out for you.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

What are your turn options after calling for value on the flop? Are you planning on check/calling 'til the river? When do you check/fold?

I'd figure he'd bet .5 to 1 pot on the flop. You call. Now you check the turn. Is an all-in bet the only bet you fold to? Or do you interpret strength from the fraction of the pot he bets on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree the hard part to check call is that even mokeys at $30+3 would bet till all in on the river with under pairs since they feel they have the best hand or they could bluff their way through.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree the hard part to check call is that even mokeys at $30+3 would bet till all in on the river with under pairs since they feel they have the best hand or they could bluff their way through.

[/ QUOTE ]

For clarity's sake: yeah, I think it's tough but I'm not making any assertions or challenging Irieguy's suggestions... I'm hoping for more brain pickage...

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]

I agree the hard part to check call is that even mokeys at $30+3 would bet till all in on the river with under pairs since they feel they have the best hand or they could bluff their way through.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to fold the best hand sometimes. There's a name for somebody who never makes a bad fold: Calling Station.

Irieguy

[johnnybeef]

this early in the sng, i will fold kq off to a raise. on the flop i like a pot size bet.

[zaphod]

Why did i call preflop?

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I agree the hard part to check call is that even mokeys at $30+3 would bet till all in on the river with under pairs since they feel they have the best hand or they could bluff their way through.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to fold the best hand sometimes. There's a name for somebody who never makes a bad fold: Calling Station.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

hm...

if i bet 1/3 pot on the flop, co may call or fold. but he may also see weakness and raise me believing he has the best hand. i'd probably call. he may continue to believe he has the best hand and show strength on the turn. now i have no idea where i stand w/top pair.

if i check raise, he'll fold. i'll just get whatever he bet on the flop.

being a calling station in this case would get me the most $ since he may also bet on the turn as well. ah, i see said the blind man.

but isnt it dangerous to let him see cards for cheap? he may catch something to beat me if i just check/call his weak bets on the flop/turn, whereas a check/raise on the flop would probably end it right there.

or even worst, he may check the turn and get a free river card?

why is this line of being a calling station better than a check/raise?