Jam the turn here or not? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Alchemist

02-17-2005, 01:36 PM

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Raising is automatic here IMO.

Turn: (5.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, BB calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

Here I'm not so sure. 9 cards give me the nut flush, 4 of which also give me the 2nd nut low or better. Plus 12 more cards give me the 2nd nut low or a wheel. If the river bricks I have nothing and I have to be concerned about ace-three if a non-heart 6,7,8 comes.
Maybe I'm better off just calling here? What if I was first to act?

River: (14.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, MP1 calls, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 20 BB
Main Pot: 20 BB, between BB, MP1 and Hero. > Scooped by Hero (20 BB).

BB has Kd 3h 7s Kh (Low: 8, 7, 5, 3, 2 | High: flush, king high).
MP1 has Qc Qs 6h Ts (High: three of a kind, queens).
Hero has 5d 4h Tc Ah (Low: 8, 5, 4, 2, A | High: flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 20 BB.

I feel I should send the BB a thank-you note for staying in while drawing almost dead. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

BradleyT

02-17-2005, 02:25 PM

I would have folded preflop.

I don't think jamming the turn is a great idea. You're 4:1 against making your flush and you've got 2nd nut low draw. Against 2 people you're losing money raising the pot based on your flush draw only. Without a nut low draw you probably aren't going to win the low half so I think raising here is marginal at best.

River is fine.

Alchemist

02-17-2005, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have folded preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 x is one of those hands that's sort of a coin flip as to whether I play it or not. I figure in a loose game with little PF raising, it's worthwhile seeing a flop for one bet. [ QUOTE ]

I don't think jamming the turn is a great idea. You're 4:1 against making your flush and you've got 2nd nut low draw. Against 2 people you're losing money raising the pot based on your flush draw only. Without a nut low draw you probably aren't going to win the low half so I think raising here is marginal at best.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I was playing too fast for my own good here. Upon recollection, I think calling is definitely best here.

[ QUOTE ]

River is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Moneyline

02-17-2005, 03:12 PM

Preflop: If the game was aggressive I would fold, but if it was passive I would play the hand as well.

Flop: Why do you think raising is automatic? Personally, I would call. I wouldn't want to drive people out of the hand while on a draw. I suppose a raise might knock out another A4xx, but it will also knock out a lot of lesser hands that might otherwise pay you off when you make your hand.

Turn: It looks like you have 10 outs to scoop (hearts that don't pair the board and treys. Unless the BB is very loose and passive, your other low outs may only be good for 1/4 or none of the pot. From the way MP1 is betting, I would suspect he/she either has a set or a low draw that cannot be counterfeited. I would again call.

River: Now I would start jamming.

djr

02-17-2005, 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: If the game was aggressive I would fold, but if it was passive I would play the hand as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Even in a passive game, it's still too weak a hand in that position. I'd go in with it on the CO/Button but no earlier.

I agree with you comments on flop/turn/river though. Except, on the turn, don't forget that if another T or 5 hit he's got a boat (granted not nut, but it is worth something).

lighterjobs

02-17-2005, 03:42 PM

imo i think you played this hand too fast. i would limp in the cutoff if this game was passive, but probably wouldn't have played it anywhere else because this is a pretty weak hand.

i strongly disagree that a raise on the flop is automatic. you have counterfeit protection for the 2nd low and a nut flush draw, so why raise to get other hands out? why not maximize your profits.

you probably should have bet the river or checked, but i don't think a reraise was a good idea. you have 12 scoop cards, but if none of them come you have absolutely nothing and have lost your entire investment in this hand.

you were drawing about as slim as the bb.

gergery

02-17-2005, 05:20 PM

Preflop: I think this is one of those balance hands that could go either way depending on the game – the looser/passive the game, the more I’d tend to play this. This is the kind of hand I’d use to adjust my image, too. Note: This hand has 22pts in Hutchinsons system, where 20 pts is playable. At low levels like .5/1 I’d play this more than half the time.

On flop: I would have just called. Raising is a reasonable alternative, but is only best if you are promoting 2nd best hands in one direction or the other AND your hand is not so likely to happen and powerful if it does that you’d prefer more people in. Here, you would want to raise if you think it would help get your high to win if you still miss the flush, but unfortunately that is very unlikely as your two-pair potential is poor and if it hits it enables a low that counterfeits you.

So you need to rely almost exclusively on your flush for high, and if that hits you want more people in. For low, at low limits no one will fold A3 here, so you are not likely to clean any outs up there. And its more likely than not that no one has A3 anyway.

Net, I think you want callers more than you want folders. If you had, say, A24Q, then raising would probably be right since you’d have a decent chance to win high even if your flush missed.

On the turn: I’d have just called. Your low may be no good, and you need the flush to make your high. You only want BB to fold if he has A3, and he’s not likely to do that.

Note that even with their actual hands, you had 9 outs to scoop and another 9 outs to split (worth about 4 scoop outs) for 13 scoop outs and there are 38 cards to come meaning you are about EV neutral on fresh money going in the pot and that’s with BB calling. If he’d folded you have cost yourself money with this raise. And at higher levels this opponent will have A3 plus something, so as your opponents get better this raise will be more and more EV-.

--Greg

BradleyT

02-17-2005, 09:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have folded preflop.

I don't think jamming the turn is a great idea. You're 4:1 against making your flush and you've got 2nd nut low draw. Against 2 people you're losing money raising the pot based on your flush draw only. Without a nut low draw you probably aren't going to win the low half so I think raising here is marginal at best.

River is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed that you also had two pair on the turn - I just saw the flush and low draw. Eh, I don't think jamming is as bad as initially thought here.