Worst turn card ever

[Ghazban]

Live 1/2 game, fairly tough players all sitting directly to my left /images/graemlins/frown.gif I am dealt QQ in MP with ~$130 in my stack. All others in the hand have me covered. Folded to me, I make it $8 to go and get called by 2 people behind me and the BB.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($33)

Checked to me, I bet $20 and villain on button is the only caller.

Turn: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif ($73)

Great, the spades got there, as did the T9 and AT straight draws (all possible holdings for villain).

Your move?

[MyMindIsGoing]

Check and see what price you get for drawing to full house on the river. That is what I would do anyways.

[MyMindIsGoing]

BTW I would bet more on flop also.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
Check and see what price you get for drawing to full house on the river. That is what I would do anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you're saying but it seems that, by following this sort of thinking regularly, you will get pushed out of a lot of pots any time a scare card hits.

[Tilt]

Hes a good player, right? He doesnt have AT, or even KT for that matter. You can't rule out by any means that he is calling with a flush draw, but by and by good players flat call you with made hands. I put him on two pair or a weaker set.

So, IMO there are so many possible hands that you are ahead of that I would not let that card phase you too much. You should play this as though you are ahead...let him be afraid of it. Make it 70 and call him down if he pushes. If you lose this hand I think its just the price of poker.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
Hes a good player, right? He doesnt have AT, or even KT for that matter. You can't rule out by any means that he is calling with a flush draw, but by and by good players flat call you with made hands. I put him on two pair or a weaker set.

So, IMO there are so many possible hands that you are ahead of that I would not let that card phase you too much. You should play this as though you are ahead...let him be afraid of it. Make it 70 and call him down if he pushes. If you lose this hand I think its just the price of poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was essentially my thinking at the time. I felt two pair was a very likely holding for him here (KJs perhaps) or even just a pair with the naked A /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I bet half my stack (~55 I think) and then called when he pushed with T9s. I failed to fill up on the river and he took it down. I seem to be losing in these sorts of situations a fair amount recently and I'm trying to figure out if I've been unlucky or if I'm playing poorly (or some combination of the two).

[jhall23]

Yeah that definetly sucks with the stacks sizes. I assume that since you were MP and the tough players are to your left that the button was one of these tough players right?

The cut off assuming you can get all-in if you boat up is calling about $40 dollar bet. Seems unlikely a tough opponent is going to ever give it to you that cheap if you check. I think this situation really depends alot on how you and your opponent know each other. Any relevant info besides the opponent is tough?

Anyway I would have bet probably more like 25-30 on the flop, probably closer to 30 with 2 others in the pot, but that might not have changed the situation too much. Actually with a tough opponent to my left I might have even overbet the pot some to try and represent AA-KK not wanting to let in cheap draws hoping for a re-raise.

[37offsuit]

You have to bet enough that he knows you're pot committed, so he can't semi-bluff over the top. You also need to take away odds from the one card flush draw or one card straight draw. I dont' think that has to be the pot, though. 2/3 pot (~$50) would probably do, but I'm sure he's calling if he has the As (flush and gut shot).

You have 10 outs to the boat and if he has As Ts, pull out your wallet, throw it on the table, and say, "here, just take everything!"

What you can't do is check. A free card is a disaster if you're ahead and you're begging to get pushed off your hand no matter what. I'd semi-bluff any hand I'd call $20 on the flop here in Villian's position.

[MyMindIsGoing]

[ QUOTE ]
If you lose this hand I think its just the price of poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Play for long term profit, not winning pots. If you check turn here villian will often bet about half the pot, making it profitable to draw to full house (10 outs) since villian will call a bet on the river if you get there. If willian bet as a bluff on turn you might get a free showdown on river and win with your set. I would have played this diffrently.

[Tilt]

A fishy villain, huh? You needed a bigger flop bet.

Some thoughts about this situation....and other you might be getting into. Your preflop raise here needs to buy you position. It needs to be larger IMO. You don't want these good players to have odds to stack you. You want the raise to be large enough that you KNOW these guys have a high PP or AK if they call.

You can get away with varying your preflop raises, even against good observant players, if you don't vary it by your holding but rather by your position. Push the sharks behind you out of the pot when you get a hand. If you can't outplay them postflop don't worry about keeping them in the hand.

Its also entirely possible that this whole situation - goo players to your left - is -EV. I'd offer the guy to their left some money for his seat.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
Its also entirely possible that this whole situation - good players to your left - is -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely 100% true. However, I play this game to get better not to make money. I could sit at home and play online or drive to Foxwoods if money was the only object. One reason I play this game is because it gives me the opportunity to play against some pretty good players without having to play at particularly high stakes. From a learning standpoint, I'm OK with taking my lumps out of position vs. good players just to get the experience and to improve my own game.

With respect to villain, he's somewhat loose preflop but plays very well postflop and is known to be extremely aggressive both with draws, made hands, and pure bluffs. I wasn't at all surprised to see that he was playing T9s for a raise here and I suspect he'd've played it for a bigger raise had the other caller come in in front of him, too. The other caller (the one between me and villain) is also fairly loose preflop but plays well postflop. He could've had almost any two.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Play for long term profit, not winning pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmmm...thats what I am doing. If you check/call here you may give away the winning card. There are about as many pausible holdings by villain that you are ahead of as behind, plus you have outs. Check/call is weak-tight IMO.

And, I would never bet half the pot if I am villain here. I would set you in, almost every time, unless I wanted the free card. The value I lose by not milking the hand will be won back multi-fold when you make poor plays later because you wonder if I am bluffing.

So, knowing that strategy, you are going to fold if he sets you all-in? You think if he does that its for sure hes ahead, and since you dont have odds you wont call? If I knew that about you as a player and I was to your left I would call your bet on the flop WITH ANY TWO CARDS and bluff whichever draw hit - straight or flush. You make every hand I have into an open-ended straight flush when you play that way.

Sure, you think you will catch me eventually playing that way, but usually more often you call at the wrong time, when I have the nuts. You MUST block the bluff here, which commits you to this pot.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]

With respect to villain, he's somewhat loose preflop but plays very well postflop and is known to be extremely aggressive both with draws, made hands, and pure bluffs. I wasn't at all surprised to see that he was playing T9s for a raise here and I suspect he'd've played it for a bigger raise had the other caller come in in front of him, too. The other caller (the one between me and villain) is also fairly loose preflop but plays well postflop. He could've had almost any two.

[/ QUOTE ]

If villian plays draws aggressively I like the idea of overbetting the flop slightly even more. You have 2 callers so a bigger bet is in order than HU and you know last to act plays draws agressively. I assume that it would be within his moves to semi-bluff push with a sweet draw. Maybe by overbetting you can get him to make this move and get all the money in. Since you are ahead of the straight-flush draws that would be great. What do you think?

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
A fishy villain, huh? You needed a bigger flop bet.

Some thoughts about this situation....and other you might be getting into. Your preflop raise here needs to buy you position. It needs to be larger IMO. You don't want these good players to have odds to stack you. You want the raise to be large enough that you KNOW these guys have a high PP or AK if they call.

You can get away with varying your preflop raises, even against good observant players, if you don't vary it by your holding but rather by your position. Push the sharks behind you out of the pot when you get a hand. If you can't outplay them postflop don't worry about keeping them in the hand.

Its also entirely possible that this whole situation - goo players to your left - is -EV. I'd offer the guy to their left some money for his seat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this train of preflop thinking. choo choo

[pho75]

Knowing that any bet will pot commit you, would it be wrong to go all-in here? He may fold a made straight that did not include the As.

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Its also entirely possible that this whole situation - goo players to your left - is -EV. I'd offer the guy to their left some money for his seat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, Bison has a long post in the Small Stakes limit section about how you want loose players on your right and tight on your left. The reason being you'll have more "Button"'s often. Is that a maxim that applies more to limit than no-limit?

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this train of preflop thinking. choo choo

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I can anticipate your arguments, but perhaps you won't mind making them?

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting, Bison has a long post in the Small Stakes limit section about how you want loose players on your right and tight on your left. The reason being you'll have more "Button"'s often. Is that a maxim that applies more to limit than no-limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think it would apply even more to NL.
The issue here is that he has loose preflop players with good postflop skills on his left. Worst of all possible worlds.

[jbright]

I haven't read the result yet... but one thing to think about here is that almost all of the likely flush draw holdings he might have called a 4x pfr with - AsKs, AsQs, AsJs, KsQs, QsJs, JsTs - are not possible b/c those cards are on the board. That really only leaves AsTs, Ts9s and maybe the lower suited connectors depending on the player.

Since ATo probably won't call the flop bet with his gutshot, and given that there are lots of possible hands that you beat that would've called it - two pair, lower set, AK, AQ, maybe even AJ or KT - I think you have to be aggressive on this turn prevent either a free spade or str card (A, T, 9) on the river.

a push isn't even a bad idea, since it might even scare away a baby flush or the unlikely made straight, and since you have redraws to the boat. If the guy ends up holding AsTs or Ts9s and you don't fill up... well you were just destined to lose money on this hand. Whatever small sum you might've saved by getting weak on the turn is more than offset by preventing the disaster of letting your top set be outdrawn by a free river card you gift-wrapped and delivered to a villain holding the lone ace of spades.

that's my thinking for this turn, anyway. I agree with those who said bet more on the flop, you've got the absolute nuts on the flop but lots of turn cards could change that. You don't want to give even close to implied odds to callers. Bet pot+ on flop and be happy with a modest win if everyone folds.

as for pre-flop, I don't blame you for not raising more than 4x first-in. Winning nothing but the blinds w/ AA-QQ is incredibly frustrating, and in this situation you want those on your left put you on a weak blind-steal and overplay lesser hands against your monster. Others may disagree of course...

[BobboFitos]

Tilt,

I understand your thinking about raising more to lower the implied odds of the "sharks" to your left, but the reason this isn't great is fairly simple -
Dont allow them to stack you when you have an overpair.

Sounds silly, but I like action when I have big pairs, even against fairly good players. The key concept is not overplaying your hand.

Anyways, it's tough to keep varying your raises solely for the purpose of lowering smart opponents' implied odds, and the fact is, makign a raise big enough so it's only called when you're beaten, (basically, you said you only want them to call w/ high pockets or AK) you're risking too much preflop for the reward (the blinds)

Although none of us enjoy when a solid player takes a flop with position and relatively deep stacks, it really isn't the end of the world.

[NickPoker]

In these lower limit NL games, especially live games an $8 bet preflop doesn't accomplish narrowing the field very often, which is what you want with a hand like QQ. I know it is 4XBB, and that it is a standard raising amount, but in many players mind it is "just" $8. I think a better line with a hand like this would be a $15 opening preflp raise, this should weed out most hands that will blindside you post flop (if it doesn't the people making the calls will preflop bet themselves into rebuy after rebuy, because the odds won't justify too many calls with those type of hands given the stack sizes on the table.) Now we are to the flop, if you happend to get a couple of calls, you could either bet the pot (which commits you) or push, I would push. In these low NL capped short stacked games you almost always have to go to the felt with the hand you described, so my advice is to narrow the field so you have a better chance of winning the hand. Once the villian called your preflop bet, there was nothing you could do after that flop hit, your chips were destined for his stack.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]

Sounds silly, but I like action when I have big pairs, even against fairly good players. The key concept is not overplaying your hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't sound silly. I think what makes this hardest in practice is when you are to the right of players capable of making sophisticated bluffs. Its especially tough to play QQ leading into that sort of player...if stays one pair and the board gets scary you are often forced to lay it down. Unless you can read them well you may end up conceding this hand when any overcard or draw hits.

If its just a player or two who are TAG to your left then I agree with you its easy to get away from. If its a player who is a little crazy on top of being smart I am more of a mind to either draw their money in early with a bigger raise or force them out. If they are going to gamble that they can outplay you on the flop and turn, make them gamble more.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
In these lower limit NL games, especially live games an $8 bet preflop doesn't accomplish narrowing the field very often, which is what you want with a hand like QQ. I know it is 4XBB, and that it is a standard raising amount, but in many players mind it is "just" $8. I think a better line with a hand like this would be a $15 opening preflp raise, this should weed out most hands that will blindside you post flop (if it doesn't the people making the calls will preflop bet themselves into rebuy after rebuy, because the odds won't justify too many calls with those type of hands given the stack sizes on the table.) Now we are to the flop, if you happend to get a couple of calls, you could either bet the pot (which commits you) or push, I would push. In these low NL capped short stacked games you almost always have to go to the felt with the hand you described, so my advice is to narrow the field so you have a better chance of winning the hand. Once the villian called your preflop bet, there was nothing you could do after that flop hit, your chips were destined for his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your thinking here but it doesn't wholly apply to this game. With respect to buyins, the starting buyin is $140 for this game but, at any time, you can rebuy up to half of the largest stack at the table (so if someone has $600, you can top off to $300 at any time). By the middle/end of the night, deep stacks are the norm. This hand occurred fairly early so shallow-stacked thinking applies but, in general, I wouldn't categorize this game in with Party-type structured games.

With respect to the opening raise size, opening raises are commonly $6-$12, occassionally more if the raiser is trying to limit the field out of the blinds with many limpers (example: I had AA in the SB, 4 people limped, I made it $16 to go).

With the amount of money in my stack, a $15 raise would probably only be called by AA-JJ and AK at this table. This may or may not be a good thing but I like to keep my raises a fairly standard size and I don't think $15 would work well for my overall style of play.

[boondockst]

worst turn card ever would actually be more like:

Hero: QQ

Flop: T J T

Turn: J

giving any moron with a jack or ten a commanding lead vs. you

or maybe a turn card that puts an openended straightflush on board vs. your Ace-high flush in a 4-way pot.

With 2 cards of a suit on the flop we expect some of the time for the 3-flush to complete. It can complete on the turn as much as the river..Expect it.

[Tilt]

Obviously, I have found this hand/game very interesting. So thanks for posting it.

I have another thought about how to play this here. If you felt strongly that if you did not raise that one of your opponents to your left would with a wide variety of hands, I would serisouly have considered a limp reraise. You may hev limited the field and built the pot all at once this way.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, I have found this hand/game very interesting. So thanks for posting it.

I have another thought about how to play this here. If you felt strongly that if you did not raise that one of your opponents to your left would with a wide variety of hands, I would serisouly have considered a limp reraise. You may hev limited the field and built the pot all at once this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

See this thread:

Failed limp-reraise (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=1699582 &Forum=f25&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=16995 82&Search=true&where=sub&Name=9799&daterange=1&new erval=&newertype=w&olderval=1&oldertype=w&bodyprev =#Post1699582)

for what happened when I tried to limp/reraise in this game /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edit: villain from that hand was directly to my left for the QQ hand in this thread. He folded to my flop bet after calling my PF raise.

[Richie Rich]

If he had T /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, then you were drawing dead. Even if you filled up.

[Ghazban]

He didn't; his suit was hearts.