stalling in heads up tournament game....cheating?

[obeythekitten]

got in an argument with another player on ultimate bet in a sng, so we decided to play each other heads up for $10 in a tournament game as i have done with others in the past.

when we start playing he refuses to play, simply waiting out 45 seconds or so until the "15 seconds left to act" message comes up

with 7 minute blinds we have barely played two dozen hands when the blinds are up to 50-100, a level i have NEVER personally reached in a heads up game.

he openly admits in the chat box that he is stalling to get an advantage, then moves in preflop with sixes against my kings, draws out on me, and stacks are 300 / 1700.

i dont recover, and end up busting out a few hands later. was what he did (stalling the game intentionally by abusing the time limit) cheating, and if so, should i report it to ultimate bet?

[The Bloke]

What advantage does this give him?

Obviously it was very annoying for you, but he's not actually gaining any advantage other than pushing the blinds up quicker - which would affect you both equally.

Plus if he actually timed out on any hands, he'd pay for those blinds giving you a slight chip advantage.

Did I miss something?

[obeythekitten]

he was playing the game normally except each hand that went to the river took in excess of 4 full minutes to play (over half of a blind period)...he admitted openly in the chat that he was stalling the game so that the blinds would go up to an extremely high level before he would start to play.

think of it this way. if there was a player you were going up against that you knew was going to beat you anyway...turning the game into a 50/50 crapshoot is a MUCH better chance for you than having to beat someone by actually playing the game.

[AA suited]

it's not cheating. think football and running down the clock.

it's just another aspect of the game u gota incorporate in your strat

[obeythekitten]

that is the absolute worst analogy ever to compare it to football. if you cant tell the diffrence between a card game partially determined by luck and a physical sport, that is pure ignorance.

[CheeseBurger]

I don't see what he did wrong. Sucks you lost, but that's poker.

[moondogg]

Well, he did not break any rules of the game, so no it's not cheating.

Definitely annoying, possibly rude. I definitely would not say unethical.

[Piers]

Email the site and ask them whether its agianst their T&C or not. Thats the best way to find out whether or not its cheating.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
that is the absolute worst analogy ever to compare it to football. if you cant tell the diffrence between a card game partially determined by luck and a physical sport, that is pure ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong, and here's an even better analogy:

Prior to the shot clock being introduced, inferior basketball teams would frequently stall (and stall and stall and stall...), reducing the number of possesions in each game. If the superior team only has 4 possessions to score during the entire game, the inferior team has a significantly better chance to win than if the superior team has 50 possessions to score.

It was not against the rules of the game at the time. (There was recently a story about a boys high school basketball game which ended something like 4-2 because each quarter the team with possession would stall the entire quarter before taking a shot)

[bwana devil]

I think you tried to play him and you got played. My guess is as a strategy you try and tilt players and then suggest a heads up SNG since you say you have done this w/ others. He found a way to tilt you and now you're looking for revenge. Let it go.

And no, this is not against the rules. Have you ever played in a "Speed" Tourney at Party? Those are the slowest darn things in the world. almost half the table waits till the last second until the timer ends so they can try and outlast the rest of the field. Those tourneys are painful.

bwana.

[Kumubou]

One solution is to go by hands played instead of time elapsed, which would remove that incentive completely (and if anything would encourage players to move faster). In single-table tournaments there is no reason to not do this, but this gets more involved as you go to multiple tables. If I remember correctly, some large tournaments late in the tournament will 'synch' tables, so that no one can benefit by stalling and playing fewer hands so that someone on another table busts out and bursts the bubble.

I have no idea what kind of effect that would have on a tournament if you went with that rule the entire time. You could end up with some very funny looking results (ie: the people at the final table not being ranked top ten, or something strange like that). Probably would have to have reset points for really large tournaments, and it may just get too complicated to be useful.

Another solution would be to decrease the amount of time given (and then provide a time bank for those times you actually do need a few extra seconds -- why PokerStars is the only site to do this leaves me wondering). This could backfire, though (as bwana devil's example suggests -- since the tournament is going faster, you stand to gain more by slowing down yourself.) Of course, if things got too fast, it would get silly.

The shot-clock in basketball is a really good example, actually.

-K

[JackOfSpeed]

I think that was a good analogy. I also think you're just bitter. It's not cheating.

[crockett]

Sheesh…once again my opinion differs (only slightly) from the others.

I always try to think in terms of “Poker” in these “situational” questions. And because I grew up playing poker I always immediately conjure up the “live” backroom games I started playing in when I think is this correct “Poker.”

IMHO, Is this unethical? Hell yes! If you pulled this crap in a live tournament people would be going through the roof and getting plenty of supporters and backers. In fact, I’d bet you’d be hard pressed to find someone who would whip out the old “It is well within’ the rules” speech. But put it on an internet forum and an internet tournament and everybody is preaching “You should known better, it’s within the rules or your opponent is obviously a poker genius and just doing the right thing, blah, blah!” BS!

Sportsmanship applies to any form of civil competition. The guy obviously lacks class and sportsmanship.

On the other hand, if you are indeed goading others into these HU matches you have to wonder if you got what you asked for. As far what should you do? Nothing, what he did was within’ the rules. I guess choose your matches more carefully or play under different rules if this is possible.

[Token]

Unfortunately this is something that UB allows. It is an advantage to do this during a MTT since other players at other tables will be busting out allowing you to move up in the ranks. People prefer PokerStars' tournaments since they don't allow this.

[moondogg]

If you are expecting ethics or sportsmanship to be applied to online poker, you will inevitably be disappointed.

When you have hundreds of thousands of people playing online anonymously, it is not reasonable to expect sportsmanship; there is what is within the rules and what is without. Otherwise it's like demanding a high level of maturity at a T-ball game full of 6-year-olds, you are just expecting more from the system than he system could possibly provide.

Additionally, poker (live or online) is not a sport and it is not honorable. It is an enjoyable way to make money by taking it from other people, many of whom are gambling addicts. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I personally love it. But we're not saving the [censored] manatees here.

[wbrumfiel]

Early in my poker days I was playing in a $10 + $1 full ring SnG at Party and a guy came in and used his full 30 secs EVERY time he could. So if he was in a hand to the river it would take at least 2 minutes plus the 30 seconds for every flop that he actually folded. No idea why he did it, guess he was bored. What it really did was put the table on tilt and cause people to go all in with crap so that they could move on to another SnG. I finished 2 other SnGs that I started AFTER this one before I got busted out in 4th place (the worst). Anyways, I emailed and called Party about it and they refused to do anything because it didnt go against the rules. "We have to allow every player 30 seconds to make a decision". Sounds like you may have ran into the same guy /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[StacysMom]

it sure seems legit and fair... on a side note everytime i play in a sng and one player always plays inf slow, it puts me on instatilt and i bust out. maybe its a good strat in taht regard, but he gains no real advantage

[obeythekitten]

[ QUOTE ]
it sure seems legit and fair... on a side note everytime i play in a sng and one player always plays inf slow, it puts me on instatilt and i bust out. maybe its a good strat in taht regard, but he gains no real advantage

[/ QUOTE ]

so youre saying that you would be willing to play people heads up for $10 + $0.50 starting with 1000 chips and starting with blinds of 50-100?

[StacysMom]

nope, i surely wouldnt. like i said, it puts me on instatilet which is def -ev. one of the reasons i dont play heads up sng's. but if u really wanna play em, i know on stars u can see the other player sitting at the table, if u know this guy always does this, then dont sit down first, and check who is awaiting a match. if their is a buddylist function on the site, add him to ur buddies, and only use this when he is logged in. but i still dont think it is cheating,.

[kendal14]

You are missing the point in the responses. No one is saying that they look for a 1000 chips 50-100 blind game. But everyone and their mother has told you pretty much the same things:

Does it suck that he took advantage of the rules? Yes. Is it against the rules? No.

Like someone else suggested... if it really bugs you that much, right an email to UB. But I doubt this goes against their T&C.

Vent if you like, as that is what forums are for... but when everyone in the world says the sky is blue and you see it as red... time to change your definition of blue.

[Seether]

Unfortanently there is nothing you can do. However, I am really surprized at the people defending it as a good thing. It is rediculous and I think it is unethical. It is the actions of one person trying to make themselves more likely to win. If you think "stalling" is a legitmate practice then I would like to see you do that a major tournament. Every hand take 3 minutes, see how much your table likes you. Just look at the comments Brunson gave Hellmuth for always being so dramatic during the Tournament of Champions thing.

[SomethingClever]

Annoying? Yes.

Cheating? No.

[obeythekitten]

i definitely should have worded it as unethical, it obviously isnt *cheating* to do it...but it certainly is an abuse of the rules already in place, and i'm really suprised that people would defend it.

i do agree now that although it isnt cheating, it certainly goes against the spirit of the game and in any live tournament would earn a penalty from the TD.

[JackOfSpeed]

What do you mean you agree "now?" That's what you thought for the start - you just wanted us all to validate your opinion and console you after you lost to an inferior player. Suck it up, pal.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
that is the absolute worst analogy ever to compare it to football. if you cant tell the diffrence between a card game partially determined by luck and a physical sport, that is pure ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I was going to compare it to college basketball before the shot clock, where weaker teams like Princeton figured out in the NCAA tournament that they would increase their chances of winning by limiting the total number of possessions for each team...sort of like what your opponent did to you.

And no, I do not think what your opponent did was cheating.

[Reef]

disclaimer: I'm buzzed

stop being a little biyatch. You took a bad beat, and that's that. I would have LOVED to have K's vs. 6's. Tell him anytime he wants to play you, he's welcome. He probably sucks vs. you and is scared.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it sure seems legit and fair... on a side note everytime i play in a sng and one player always plays inf slow, it puts me on instatilt and i bust out. maybe its a good strat in taht regard, but he gains no real advantage

[/ QUOTE ]

so youre saying that you would be willing to play people heads up for $10 + $0.50 starting with 1000 chips and starting with blinds of 50-100?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm more mature than to challenge someone to an $11 SNG because we exchanged words while playing in a cash game.

P.S. Does anyone else think an $11 SNG is a totally gay way to settle a dispute...sort of like having a pillow fight.

[obeythekitten]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean you agree "now?" That's what you thought for the start - you just wanted us all to validate your opinion and console you after you lost to an inferior player. Suck it up, pal.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree now that my choice of words was incorrect (illegal)...i still strongly believe that his actions were unethical and an abuse of the system at UB

[Jackal22]

[ QUOTE ]
it sure seems legit and fair... on a side note everytime i play in a sng and one player always plays inf slow, it puts me on instatilt and i bust out. maybe its a good strat in taht regard, but he gains no real advantage

[/ QUOTE ]

He gains no advantage by you busting out?

[LondonBroil]

I'm signing up for a SnG right now and will test to see if my waiting the max amount of time each decision will put anyone on tilt. I'll let everyone know my results.

[Dead]

Ok you have the bigger epenis.

Is this what you wanted to hear?

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it sure seems legit and fair... on a side note everytime i play in a sng and one player always plays inf slow, it puts me on instatilt and i bust out. maybe its a good strat in taht regard, but he gains no real advantage

[/ QUOTE ]

so youre saying that you would be willing to play people heads up for $10 + $0.50 starting with 1000 chips and starting with blinds of 50-100?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm more mature than to challenge someone to an $11 SNG because we exchanged words while playing in a cash game.

P.S. Does anyone else think an $11 SNG is a totally gay way to settle a dispute...sort of like having a pillow fight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think playing poker is not a way to settle a dispute.

If I call your mother a nasty name, and you challenge me to an $11 SnG and you beat me, that won't change my opinion of your mother.

Also, part of the problem with using poker as a dispute resolution tool is that bad players sometimes beat good players.

In the OP's case, he is whining about losing as a 4:1 favorite. Who wouldn't want to get the money in in this spot?

And going to UB support about it is lame. If you don't like the UB tourney structure then play at a different site.

This is why I stopped chatting while playing.

I got sick of the horse----.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

when we start playing he refuses to play, simply waiting out 45 seconds or so until the "15 seconds left to act" message comes up


[/ QUOTE ]
Was that rude? Yes.
Was that unethical? Yes.
Was that against Ultimate Bet's rules? Yes. (http://www.ultimatebet.com/rules-strategy/general-rules.html)

I don't know why so many people have said on this thread that it isn't against the rules. It's fine not to know, but then why bother posting an answer? Let me quote from the page linked above.

<ul type="square">"The following is not permitted at UltimateBet.com: ... Needlessly stalling the action in a game ... Violation of any of the above rules is grounds for warning, suspension of chat privileges, permanent barring of chat privileges, suspension of playing privileges, permanent barring of playing privileges."[/list]
So, complain to UB, and report back about what they do.

[MS Sunshine]

"It is the actions of one person trying to make themselves more likely to win."

Kind of like someone getting into a chat war in a ring game hoping to get the Big Lag into a H2H S&amp;G?

MS Sunshine

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
it's not cheating. think football and running down the clock.

it's just another aspect of the game u gota incorporate in your strat

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't football, this is a card game. While "running out the clock is a part of football", stalling like this to get some sort of perceived advantage is not a normal part of poker.

Someone wouldn't dare do this in a B&amp;M game. The B&amp;M floor person would give him a warning and that would be that. Did you try to contact the host? I'd have called over the host to get him to see what my opponent was doing.

This reminds me of a time I was playing chess online and had my opponent one move away from checkmate. He asked for a draw, which I refused. He then proceeded to inform me that he wasn't going to make a move because "the object of the game is not to lose, and not moving is the only avenue available to me to avoid losing". He spent the next fifteen minutes repeatedly offering me a draw. It was a timed game and there was 30 minutes left, so I figured I'd minimize the window and return in 20 minutes or so to see if he'd moved. Well, the little bastard had figured out that if no one made a move for 15 minutes the game would time out and be cancelled...so when I came back all I saw was the message informing me that the game had timed out.

Sigh...it's people like this that make me want to go on a nice murderous rampage.

[boscoboy]

[ QUOTE ]
got in an argument with another player on ultimate bet in a sng, so we decided to play each other heads up for $10 in a tournament game as i have done with others in the past.



[/ QUOTE ]

my thoughts:

#1 - why waste your time arguing with some knucklehead from a SNG?

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
- Sun Tzu

you engaged an opponent you knew nothing about - that's bad



Marcellus: The night of the fight, you may feel a slight sting. That's pride [censored] with you. [censored] pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps(Pulp Fiction, 1994)

#2 - it looks like this person was already inside your head before the HU action - his stalling only served to move you further off your game - that's bad too

most people don't realize this, both sun tzu and tarantino were talking about poker /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

IMHO, instead of concerning yourself with the ethical implications of stalling you should take a closer look at your own game. you need to determine if your emotional response to chat insults from complete strangers is costing you money