Advice for draw poker online?

[popniklas]

Hi!

Draw poker means fun and nostalgia, at least to me. So I have a few questions about draw poker online for those who have played it:

1. Where can you find the best high draw action? (Paradise?)

2. Do the games usually feature a joker? a jacks-or-better-to-open-rule?

3. How good/bad do people play? Are the games profitable if you are a decent but not great high draw player?

4. Any book recommendations for high draw? I'm considering buying Malmuth's "Winning concepts for Draw and Lowball"

Thankful for anwers. Feel free to share your knowledge on lowball as well. (I have never played lowball, but am planning to learn.)

[Chris Daddy Cool]

paradise and 24h are the only places that i know that feature high only poker.

i've played a bit on the paradise draw games. since i suck at draw i have no real idea if the games are that good or not.

no, the games dont' feature a joker. and no, there is no jacks-or-better rule.

[BluffTHIS!]

1) Although I have only played there occasionally and don't really like the site due to small player base, 24h does have the biggest limits high draw available. Please note that regardless of the blind level, these are POT-LIMIT games played 6-max.

2)No joker and guts to open on 24h -don't know about paradise.

3)24h games are filled with the very good and tricky and the very bad. So they are profitable but you can't be out of position with a good player without a very good hand to win.

4) This is one of the few 2+2 books I don't have. If you can find an out-of-print copy, An Encyclopedia of Draw Poker by James Anno is the best I've ever seen. Please note that this and other books don't give as much pot-limit advice as for limit, and that in the 6-max format on 24h it is rarely correct to open/limp under the gun and false-carding is a critical skill.

[hackle]

I've only played at Paradise, but it usually has a good selection of $1-$2 games. Since you mention nostalgia and fun, this might be just what you are looking for. The $5-$10 games there are often a little rough. I've found the $1-$2 games to be quite profitable, however. The play is mixed, but there are quite a few fish.

One reason for this is that there aren't many in-print books on draw poker anymore. The SS1 Caro section is good, Norman Zadeh's _Winning Poker Systems_ is as well. Mason's book covers Gardena Draw, which is not played at Paradise, but it contains excellent information to get you thinking like an expert draw player. Another great book (and in my opinion the most comprehensive book available on Lowball) is _Free Money_ by Michael Wiesenberg. It, along with the Zadeh book, are available at Gamblers Book Shop (http://www.gamblersbook.com)

However, you don't need to buy any of these to be successful at Paradise draw. Michael Wiesenberg has published a series of columns in Cardplayer that outline a complete strategy specifically for the Paradise game structure. Start with:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=13413&m_id=69

And check out the rest at:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/writers/view/name/Michael_Wiesenberg

Hope this helps,

Hackle

[popniklas]

thanks a lot for the feedback everyone.

yes, since i'm no good at draw poker and only played it in casual homegames i'm only looking for soft lowlimit games. mostly for fun, but of course i wouldn't mind winning some money.

so mason's book covers ONLY gardena draw? does it contain some advice about any adjustmens for other rules or something like that? hm.. anyone read mike caro's "advanced strategies for draw poker"? got a 10 out of 10 by mason in the book review section of gambling theory and other topics.

thanks for the wiesenberg links, btw, i'll surely check them out.

oh and by the way, speaking of paradise poker, do they still have the "granny" bonus and what is the max amount of that bonus?

[lighterjobs]

planet poker also has hi draw games.

[Nick_Foxx]

paradise usually has several tables going up to 5/10... i would say up to 3/6 the games are pretty good, but 5/10 is tough... the games are 5-handed, it's anything to open, and there is no joker... in addition it is played with blinds (small blind/big blind) rather than antes

planet poker offers draw hi w/ joker, but i'm not sure how many people actually play it

mason's book is good but i really dislike the way it is organized, i would much rather there be a separate section on draw and a separate section on lowball... it also will not be very helpful for the on-line game because of the differences mentioned in the initial paragraph

someone else brought up the zadeh book which is a classic and will help your draw game immensely (as well as your lowball, 5-card stud, 6-card stud, and 7-card stud games)

mike

[Tom Bayes]

You've gotten a lot of good advice in this thread. Weisenberg's Card Player articles are, to my knowledge, about the only material available about draw as it is played online. Mason's book and Caro's chapter are good resources, but both assume the structure (antes, jacks-or-better, joker as the bug) present in the California draw games before holdem was legalized.

Here's some of my impressions of the 3 sites I've played draw at (all three use blinds and open with anything):

Paradise: 5-seated limit games from $1/$2 to $5/$10, no joker, no tournaments. I'm not crazy about the 5 player max. Always several $1/$2 tables going-the bigger games don't always go. There are a few big fish and a lot of mediocre players, but a lot of good players as well. There is a core of draw regulars who constantly multi-table hunting out newbies to grind a living off of. Most players know enough to not be chronic limpers. Players range from very tight to maniacal, with most in the middle. The higher limit games are hit-or-miss; the players in those games are either the best or the worst draw players online.

Planet: 8-seated limit and pot-limit ring games, usually only 1 or 2 micro-limit games are running. Most players very poor, either total calling stations or rocks. Most passive draw games on the net. The most common game running is the $25 pot limit with $0.10/$0.25 blinds. Most of the regulars play it like a limit game and rarely make more than min-bets. A pot-sized raise usually means a monster. I think most of the player base is older Americans. Planet used to have draw MTTs which I loved. I hope these tournaments return shortly when they get the multi-tables running on the new software. The blinds escalated slowly and you had plenty of play. The calling stations would bleed their stacks away chasing draws and playing short pairs. The rocks were easy to rob blind in the later stages once the blinds got to a meaningful size.

24h: 6-seated games spread strictly pot-limit. Currency used is Euros rather than dollars. Several tables usually going in the smaller games (0.25-0.50 and 0.50-1.00); I've seen as high as 5-10 Euros being played. Player base is mostly European-many are sports betters. Games totally unlike Planet-these are the most aggressive draw games on the net. There are some very good & tricky players and a lot of complete maniacs. Many players here will raise the pot on stone cold bluffs. 24h also has tourney-I've only played a few. IMO, all tournaments on 24h suffer from a very crap-shooty structure that I do not care for.

P.S. Planet uses a single joker as the bug (i.e. limited wild card which can be used as an ace or to complete a straight or flush). Paradise and 24h do not use the joker.

[popniklas]

thanks for the advice.. i have never heard of the zadeh book before.. i'll try to find a review or something.. perhaps i'll buy it from gamblers book club.

oh and by the way... 6 card stud? where can you play that? seems like an odd form of poker.

[popniklas]

thanks a lot for the info, i appreciate it. planet poker seems interesting, although i'm a bit sceptic due to the lack of players. is it a good site overall? does it take long to clear the bonus? havent heard much of it and i don't really understand how their point based bonus system work.

i have never played with a joker as a bug. in home games here, people rarely use a joker, and if they do it can always be any card in the deck.

i think i'm gonna sign up at paradise right now to check out their draw games.. it's nice to play something other than hold'em every once in a while.

[hackle]

[ QUOTE ]
hm.. anyone read mike caro's "advanced strategies for draw poker"? got a 10 out of 10 by mason in the book review section of gambling theory and other topics.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's out of print, and I can tell you from experience that it's impossible to get.

It's too bad - in the intro to _Winning Concepts in Draw and Lowball_, Mason recommends memorizing this book.

Hackle

[DOMIT]

Personally, for a beginning player, I'd really recommend Planet; espec'ly if you haven't read one of the books yet. {Read the Wiesenberg articles given in the threads.}

As others have stated, the Planet games are good and passive, and you can build up some money as well as experience while you're learning.

Once you've got some under your belt, come on over to Paradise..I'm always up for more donations /images/graemlins/grin.gif, um, players!

[stripsqueez]

i play the paradise games regularly - occasionally the 1/2 but usually the higher limits when they run - lately there is usually a 5/10 game and nearly always a 2/4 or 3/6 game

the 2/4 and 3/6 games are often very soft - the 5/10 game features several regulars - redskelt, roll tide, rolleed, louise5, kiwi, and some others - all these guys are decent draw players but all of them have soft spots - one of the great things about draw amongst decent players over a period of time is the extent to which you need to be unpredictable - in addition to the decent players the 5/10 game often includes 2-3 chooks who are giving money away quickly

the most important advice for playing draw at paradise is if you happen to find yourself at a table with redskelt do yourself a favour and ignore his obnoxious chat

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Nick_Foxx]

roll tide is always chatty too... in a negative way

a good, unpredictable player though

mike

[Beach-Whale]

The funny thing is, of those that you mentioned, 1kiwi and ROLLEDDD is fish to everyone but real fish, and redskelt isn't someone you would lose money to either.

[schubes]

Stay away from paradise draw 2+2ers! ROLLEDDD will crush you with his razor thin value bets.

[stripsqueez]

hey schubes - you owe my lots of blinds - filthy stealers

i think ROLLEDDD and 1kiwi are decent players but predictable - redskelt is unpredictable and clever but suffers from a grandiose view of his ability which occasionally causes him to spew some chips

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[RitmoEnElCaos]

I've played all these people listed. I think Roll~Tide is very nice and a good player. redskelt is a decent player but a complete hothead. I have a funny story of one time I was playing Rolleddd.

I was getting lots of cards, raising his limps, beating his crud. I guess he got fed up with it... I get KK55 in the BB. Rolleddd open raises from the SB. I reraise, he caps. Rolleddd stands pat. Now at this point, I am just trying to discourage him from betting/bluffing into me on the end... I don't expect to win/improve (1 in 10 shot)... I just want to see his cards for as cheaply as possible. So I stand pat. Action on Rolleddd...

He just folds... outright. Guess I caught his bluff play and he didn't want to show his crap. He immediately leaves the table (giving up his 3 free hands).

[schubes]

I am just trying to discourage him from betting/bluffing into me on the end... I don't expect to win/improve (1 in 10 shot)... I just want to see his cards for as cheaply as possible.

It's usually a bad idea to try to show down kings up cheaply when that particular player caps and stands pat. I'd take the 1 in 10 shot to fill up and get 2 bets after the draw. Good read though (and I too have seen him get caught in a rare bluff and leave quickly).

Here's a more typical Rolleddd story:
He open limps on button, folded to BB who draws 3, he draws 1...

check, check...

he shows down 3 tens?!

[RitmoEnElCaos]

In that situation (given that you sense the other player is steaming), what are you doing those 90% of the times you draw and miss? Calling down anyway?

[schubes]

If you strongly suspected that he was steaming then you would have done better to let him bluff after the draw. I find a lot of your edge against decent players in this game comes from picking off bluffs in the right spots.

Also don't underestimate the value of drawing to fill up, you'll hit less than 10% but when you do you'll win a pot of 6 bets (8 bets for fishier players).

Standing pat like you did isn't necessarily a bad strategy, it depends on how likely you judge him to be bluffing. My calculation on the back of a napkin suggests that if he's bluffing an eighth of the time or less you do best to draw and fold if you miss. If he's bluffing a third of the time or more, you do best to draw and call if you miss. Standing pat does best in that in between region.

This assumes he will never continue the bluff if you stand pat, which may be true for Rolleddd but certainly not for all steamers. So generally if you're worried about a bluff, especially if standing pat wont always stop them, you won't go too wrong by simply drawing and making a decision between calling and folding when you dont improve.

[RitmoEnElCaos]

Awesome response! I wish there were more draw discussion like this on 2+2 (or anywhere for that matter).

[TheShootah]

I was thinking of starting to play on Paradise actually, just for the draw. I was thinking though that if we got enough people we might be able to request some new structures, like antes w/ J's or better, or just something bigger than 5 handed. It seems like they have a decent enough draw following at that site to have them add something to it.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking of starting to play on Paradise actually, just for the draw. I was thinking though that if we got enough people we might be able to request some new structures, like antes w/ J's or better, or just something bigger than 5 handed. It seems like they have a decent enough draw following at that site to have them add something to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

While we're fantasizing I wish Paradise would spread 2-7 single draw (no limit). That'd be the day though.

[Beach-Whale]

I love the Paradise structure and hope they never change it. More than fivehanded and it becomes very boring (go to Planet if you want that). And why would you want jacks-or-better? I want the bad, and even some fair players (like ROLLEDDD), to limp in with their pair of fives... Or a straight draw. Or the loose aggressives to open raise with every draw they have and bluff. Stop wishing for that stuff to go away! Go ask Planet for it. And if you want pot limit, go to the B2B network.

[TheShootah]

Who wouldn't want to see other games get spread? I wish some cardroom would just suck it up and offer just about every game ever spread. It would be great. I am one of those people that likes to play and be proficient at every game. I think Jack's or Better is a much better version of draw. I like playing with the bug, and a full table, and the fact that you can play all the ranges of hands, instead of just waiting for high pairs and open raising. That five handed table is of course very good, and I like the idea also, but I think if Paradise spread alot of different structures (Lowball too) it would be way better. Maybe if they starting spreading Jacks or Better some of the old time Gardena pros would show up to play. It would be hilarious to see Caro sit down at one of those tables.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]

4) This is one of the few 2+2 books I don't have. If you can find an out-of-print copy, An Encyclopedia of Draw Poker by James Anno is the best I've ever seen. Please note that this and other books don't give as much pot-limit advice as for limit, and that in the 6-max format on 24h it is rarely correct to open/limp under the gun and false-carding is a critical skill.

[/ QUOTE ]

I found a copy of this via an online used book seller. It lists the publisher, however, as "An Exposition Banner Book." Is this an error or is it a different book? I've never seen this on any list of 2+2 books. Thanks!

[Beach-Whale]

The 2+2 book he's referring to is "Winning concepts for Draw and Lowball." See the post he was replying to.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
The 2+2 book he's referring to is "Winning concepts for Draw and Lowball." See the post he was replying to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh. I understand now. My apologies.

[popniklas]

Scubes: Good points about the hand. That was more or less the same as I thought about the situation, although you said it better than i would. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

So.. I have been playing every now and then at Paradise 1/2 draw and I like it. I am a little ahead, but the variance seems pretty high, so I don't really know if I am "beating the game" or not.

I do not think I play very well, but the games are quite soft at the 1/2 limit, so I'm better than most others.

Zadeh's and Wiesenberg's books are on their way from Gambler's Bookclub and I'm looking forward to improving my game. Thanks for the advice everyone.

I hope to be part of the discussions on high draw (should there be any) once I have learned the game a little better. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[roll tide]

Roll Tide USED to be chatty in a negative way ha! She has calmed down alot with experience. Thanks for all the compliments guys /images/graemlins/smile.gif Now that this site has been brought to my attention, I can keep up with all the gossip about me.

[schubes]

Hey roll! (betn3bet here) Who tipped you off to this site? I'm not quite sure if I want you here.

[roll tide]

I found this in Google someone told me to do a search on Redskelt and I cam into this as well as the article you told me about did non know it was the same site. Anyways it is jsut too bad lol I will now be able to see all the gossip about me and snap you even more lol. I wish we could get more people on the bigger tables though, as well as draw tournaments. Who would want Jacks or better would have to learn a whole new game with the programming we thrive on the fish.

[CrAzY CaRo]

Um...Can You Say "B U S T E D"?Lmao /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif <---- doesnt that make you sick? /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[bigpooch]

Draw poker means fun and nostalgia, at least to me. So I have a few questions about draw poker online for those who have played it:

1. Where can you find the best high draw action? (Paradise?)


Although there has been low limit draw at Planet, the two
sites that provide the most games online are clearly:

1) Paradise Poker
The game is five handed fixed limit with two blinds to the
left of the button (as in LHE) with no requirements to open.

2) 24h
The game is six handed PL with blinds to the left of the
button and with no requirements to open. Here, the game is
played in Euros and not US dollars.



2. Do the games usually feature a joker? a jacks-or-better-to-open-rule?


There is no bug in the games and no opening requirements.



3. How good/bad do people play? Are the games profitable if you are a decent but not great high draw player?


There is a wide range of players from truly hopeless to some
very good players. The games can be profitable for a decent
player if he is selective of the games he sits in. It is
obvious that most of the profit comes from very weak players
making common mistakes and any players that have significant
leaks. If you can multitable, it is possible to make very
good money in limit but I would warn you not to play too
many PL draw tables because of the "slider effect": the use
of the slider at PL restricts the maximum number of tables
you can play since you need to price your bets. I really
recommend limit because you can really win every single
week you play as long as you put in the hours and play as
many tables as you can (profitably!).


4. Any book recommendations for high draw? I'm considering buying Malmuth's "Winning concepts for Draw and Lowball"


That's an excellent book, but unfortunately it won't help
you significantly in the typical online games. I would say
the same for Nesmith Ankeny's book on PL Jacks-or-better.

For limit, the best book is Zadeh's Winning Poker Systems
even though there may be some small errors in it, and the
opening requirements do need refining (as alluded to by
Mason Malmuth's review). Zadeh's book is also very good for
limit lowball draw.

There is also a series of articles written by Weisenberg in
Card Player magazine and are worth looking through although
to be honest, I also think the opening requirements need
refining and his reraising requirements are a bit loose and
need to be dependant on the opposition. I think they are
somewhat useful to new players from a practical side, but
you won't get the kind of theory you need to get from a book
like Zadeh's.

Also, for the relatively new game of TD (Triple Draw)
lowball, there is a section in Super System 2 by Daniel
Negreanu. Unfortunately, I cannot make an assessment of
that chapter as of yet.

[popniklas]

Thanks a lot for the advice. I have read Wiesenberg's columns and play 1/2 regularly at Paradise now. Also, I have ordered Wiesenbergs "Free Money" and Zadeh's "Winning Poker System" from Gambler's Book Club, they should arrive any day now.

My biggest leak at the moment is the play after the draw. I probably call too much instead of folding, but I am of course working in it. Also, I don't really know when to raise/reraise after the draw except in obvious cases. So I'm not very good at this game, to be honest. Fortunately, there are many players out there who are a lot worse. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Could you comment a little on where and why you disagree with Wiesenberg's columns (for example, how would you modify his opening requirements)? It would be appreciated.

[bigpooch]

For discussion, assume the game is 5-handed and utg=the
player "under the gun" or next to act after the big blind.

1) On calling after the draw:

Although you mention that you are calling too much instead
of folding (I am the other way around until I have enough
player notes), it isn't terrible unless you routinely always
call, in which case you will be labelled a calling station
and not many players will attempt to bluff you. Against
players that bluff more than what seems to be correct (you
would have to know from playing with them or the hand
histories), you wouldn't be far off from almost always
calling them. For many opponents, especially those that
rarely bluff, you wouldn't be far off from folding except
with those hands that have some slight chance of winning.
If you are not sure at all, you can always resort to game
theoretical calling which is based on the pot size (and
strangely, not at all how many cards you or your opponent
draw) when you are the opener (you initiated the first
raise; it's quite a bit different if you are the big blind).
It's also important to recognize how players perceive you:
if they think you are a caller, they will seldom bluff; if
you've folded frequently against a particular player, you
may have to call (because it's a theoretical one) even if
your notes/experience indicate otherwise. For example, I
know of a player who doesn't play on Paradise anymore (he's
now on 24h), but in two consecutive hands, he attempted to
bluff me (because he was stuck, I thought this would be a
good time to make the first call which is based on theory)
and both attempts, especially the second, surprised me!

So in heads up situations, you're not that far off if you
frequently call until you have sufficient notes on a player
or can get a line on his play/thinking.

Here's a typical example: You open with a pair utg with
either KK or AA (I'll not debate whether you can open weaker
or not!) and your sole opponent in the cutoff makes a cold
call and the pot becomes heads up. You draw three and your
opponent takes one card and from your player notes data, he
is often on a flush draw or an open-ender. You've decided
postdraw, for some reason (I won't get into that), that you
will bet out when you improve and check all other hands.
You don't catch anything and check and your opponent bets.
If you've seen this opponent bluff even once in this kind of
situation, you must call with your unimproved AA all of the
time and KKQ and KKA as well. The pot has $5.25 and your
optimal calling frequency is 5.25/7.25 = 21/29. Your top
fraction of hands obvious includes AA for the top 1/2 and
you can see that KKA and KKQ would be included too.

In multiway pots, you are sometimes at the mercy of being
squeezed out if there is at least one other player behind
you that can defend the pot. Also, you have to read the
situations where there is almost no chance your opponent is
bluffing, unless he misread his hand. On the other extreme,
if the player behind you for some reason drew 4 cards, you
can almost ignore this factor.

2) On raising after the draw:

In theory, players often raise with hands that are really
insufficient, but these raises often work because their
opponent was playing suboptimally. If you are going to
raise, you must be more than a 50% favorite of winning after
your opponent calls or reraise; by how much more than 50%
depends on the size of the pot and how often he will reraise
you (with often a better hand). In the rare case that your
opponent will never reraise you, you only have to be a tiny
bit above, unless the rake factor is involved (yes, the
rake is significant!). The theoretical minimum raising hand
can be approximated by the pot size and range of hands.

Here's a situation that is often misplayed:

The opener raises utg and a very tough player calls in the
small blind with the big blind folding. Both players draw
three cards and you know as well as I do that the tough
player can only have started with one hand: AA. After the
draw, the tough player leads out. Clearly you can't raise
with two pair against this player and arguably you may not
even raise with KKK if he thinks you're a bluffer but not
bluff-raiser! But with two pair, you have to call in case
he was value betting something like AAK or accidentally
misclicked in the play of the hand. Besides, if you never
called in this spot with two pair, you would be giving up
in this situation about 87% of the time (and even if you
called with Aces up, that would only add a sliver).

A far more common situation is when you are heads up with
one of the blinds and both of you draw three and from your
notes you know what pairs this player plays in this exact
situation (he may defend more liberally versus a button
raise and muck QQ versus an utg raise). You both draw three
and your opponent leads out and you have two pair or trips.
Unless your opponent plays a lot of shorts (small pairs)
and always calls your raise, you would be overplaying KK22
if you raised with this. Aces-up represents a borderline
raising hand if your opponent always called your raise but
will be an incorrect play against a player that would fold
a lot of weaker hands when raised or only could have AA. An
easy raise can be made on trips if there is a slight chance
that your opponent could have smaller trips; if that's not
possible, then all of your opponents trips would beat yours
and raising would again be borderline at best because of the
possibility of a reraise: yes, he could have filled or show
you AAA.

On Weisenberg's column about predraw.

Although his opening hand requirements are tight and
aggressive, you won't be using a better exploitive strategy
that exists. In addition, his reraising requirements seem
too formulaic and don't consider how other players will
play. As a very clear cut example: You have QQAK2 utg
and you know the big blind plays shorts. If you don't raise
with this hand in this spot, you are leaving money on the
table. On the other extreme: suppose you see a very good
player limp utg and one other player limps behind. Would
you now raise with KK? Well, to be honest, the last three
times I limped in utg, I held either a pat straight flush or
quads so you would be just losing a bet here unless the
miraculous happened!

Still, I can see players getting something from his articles
and I welcome the columns for promoting the game. On the
other hand, the key idea in Zadeh's book is to base your
play on your opponent's range of hands, bearing in mind that
sometimes your tricky opponents will sometimes deceive you
into thinking that you play seemingly poor hands more often
than you do.

[Tom Bayes]

[ QUOTE ]

On Weisenberg's column about predraw.

Although his opening hand requirements are tight and
aggressive, you won't be using a better exploitive strategy
that exists. In addition, his reraising requirements seem
too formulaic and don't consider how other players will
play.

[/ QUOTE ]

BigPooch is right in that players who play their hands strictly by the Weisenberg article will not be taking advantage of many profitable situations and also leaves yourself vulnerable to the knowledgable players who pick up that you are playing "Weisenberg 101". However, I still highly recommend anyone who is going to play online poker reads this article, both to help your game and to know how some of your opponents play. For those of us coming from a mainly holdem background, we often overvalue certain hands and play them too aggressively. When I first played draw, I overvalued two small pair, not fully realizing how vulnerable I was to players improving a big pair and beating me. Two small pair is probably the "AQ" or "pocket jacks" of draw-a hand that looks nice at first but often can hurt you if you don't know how to get away from it when it's beat. Many other players overplay middle and small pairs, which are crap in most draw situations.

I'm sure Weisenberg realizes that his standards must be tweaked to take advantage of opponents that are either too looser or too tight (and you will see both). To give an extreme example of playing the player, about a year ago I was playing a $5 pot-limit draw tourney at Planet Poker. The player to my immediate left was incredibly tight-never raised w/o at least trips and wouldn't re-raise without a pat hand. I was in mid-position and was dealt a pat straight. A loose player acting UTG makes a pot-sized bet. This guy would make loose calls, so I make a pot-sized raise. Ms. Tight, acting after me, comes over the top with a pot-sized reraise (which would put both Mr. Loose and me all-in). Mr. Loose calls. I know that Ms. Tight has a pat hand and my 10-high straight is probably dead. I throw it away (I would call in a limit game). Mr. Loose draws 2 and fails to improve his trip aces and is knocked out. Ms. Tight shows ace-high flush. Of course, I would not throw away a pat hand against most players, but I felt it was the correct play against this very tight and predictable player.

[Tom Bayes]

I haven't played at Paradise for several months since I prefer tournaments and pot-limit (as found at 24h) as opposed to the 5-seated limit games available at Paradise. However, if you start playing there, a sign that you are a bad player is if bigpooch joins your table ASAP after you sit /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[popniklas]

How about the 24h games, are the players better or worse than at Paradise, in general? Is PL draw much harder to play than limit? (I'm not a very good NL and PL player. I do ok in NLHE sng:s but pretty much suck at NLHE cash games, other than that I don't play big bet poker. LHE is my main game.)

PL draw seems like a lot of fun if you're good at it, but I don't really know how to play it... are there any resources on PL draw?

[Tom Bayes]

Well, most of the standard sources that I have on draw (Malmuth, Caro, Zadeh, Weisenberg) are geared towards limit draw and I've had to make most of my "adjusting" to pot-limit on my own. You have to be a bit tighter in pot-limit and you need to be very careful with raising after the draw, because you can end up facing a huge reraise and a very difficult decision. In general there is more bluffing and people trying tricky plays in pot-limit than limit.

As far as the 24h players, they range from excellent to absymal. I've not played above the 1/2 Euro level and mostly at the 0.25/0.50 and 0.50/1 Euro level. In the small games, most players aren't that good and fit into one of two basic stereotypes. They are either too loose-passive, calling too much and rarely betting unless they have a great hand; or they are too reckless, overvaluing marginal hands and trying to bluff too much. As you move up, the players get trickier. I haven't played the games bigger than 1/2, but they go up to 5/10 (and a 25/50 Euro that goes once a week) and there are some players in those games that I don't really want to play with-they mix up their play and are fearless.

Limit is easier than pot-limit to learn (especially since you describe yourself as a limit holdem player), but I enjoy the pot-limit games more. It's sort of like the difference between limit and no-limit holdem-the limit game is more mechanical and mathematical, while the big-bet games give more opportunities to play "the player" rather than the cards. The risks and rewards are bigger in the pot-limit games.

Why not try both? Start at Paradise, but try the small 0.25/0.50 pot-limit game at 24h. If you want a really easy but boring game, play the $0.10/$0.25 pot-limit game at Planet Poker. This game is very passive but won't do much to prepare you for more difficult games. If you like tourneys or SNGs, 24h has low buy-in draw tournaments and SNGs that you might enjoy. Since you are from Sweden, you will find that 24h is the busiest during your evening since most of the 24h players are from Sweden or other Scandanavian countries. If you want to play with me, you'll have to stay up until the middle of the night to wait for me to get home from work, or play the weekend /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[roll tide]

who are you kidding about u r not good if Big Pooch sits. He is a table whore, lol he there isnt a table out there he doesnt sit on hehe!

[bigpooch]

Well, it's probably true that you're not all that good if I
sit at the game. Do you see why? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But seriously, I won't sit at every table, especially if I
am 7-, 8- or 9-tabling (the most I have tried is 11) since
I don't like to play 3-handed because draw is so mouse
intensive (have to click on every discard) and I would be
involved in more than 2/3 of the hands at the table if
there aren't 4 players.

And apologies for those lulls when it seems that the pooch
is sleeping; he's probably clicking on a plethora of
windows because he's been dealt big slick umpteen times.
Sometimes I do only play 3 tables on Paradise, especially
if I am at a 40-80 table ( I do pay some attention there!).

[popniklas]

Ok, thanks. I guess I'll try to tackle the PL draw games at 24hpoker when my game has got better, I still have a long way to go to be really good at limit draw, so first things first I guess. PL draw seems like a lot of fun though...

[Tom Bayes]

The 0.25/0.50 pot-limit games at 24hare not very tough at all-neither are the 0.50/1. I haven't played higher than 1/2, but I've seen some players that I know are very good in the higher games (2/4, 5/10).

In addition to ring games and multi-table tournaments, 24h has sit-and-go tournaments (SNGs) available. These are single table tournaments with 6 players, 1st wins 2/3 the prize pool and 2nd wins 1/3. I've played a few and have done well so far. Most of the ones that fill up are "turbo" tournaments where the blinds increase every 5 minutes, so you have to gamble some and the tournaments go very quickly. The entire tournament will only take about 30 minutes to play.

I've played 5+0.25 and 1+0.10 turbo draw SNGs-I've noticed the 1 Euro sit-and-goes are only offered during the evening in the US (which would be the middle of the night in Europe). They also offer 5+.50 and 10+1 euro SNGs that have a normal blind structure as opposed to a quick "turbo" structure.

I'm not sure why the 1 Euro SNGs only seem to be offered during the US evening-maybe 24h is trying to lure more American players with micro-limits and freerolls. Many 24h freerolls are at times that are only good for North Americans and Swedish insomniacs /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DOMIT]

Welcome to the forum /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DOMIT]

I always get an error when trying to play more than 3 tables on Paradise, how are you playing more? Or are you playing multiple sites?

[DOMIT]

don't forget to try out the planet pot limit game.. it is easy pickings and will give you a taste of PL play, at least.

[bigpooch]

It's unfortunate that Paradise only allows playing up to 3
tables. One of the plusses of 24h is that you can play more
than 4 tables (the most I have tried is 5 there). I think
Paradise ought to upgrade their software to allow players
to play four tables, although admittedly, this won't affect
the majority of players (they can always play at another
site).

Usually, I play two sites and rarely three (when I am at
PStars, ub or a Party skin clearing a bonus).

[CrAzY CaRo]

Unfortunate?.... Pfttttttt
.. I'm way glad they don't allow peeps to sit at more than 3 tbl's!!! Sum people are simply just too slow.
I definatly dunt wana wait for sum fish to decide what he should do on another tbl..while I'm sitting there "Eyebrows raised" watchin his fool azz nic blink for 30 seconds!! Time is Money! Watch what yer askin for Pooch, ya might be one of those sittin there thumpin ya forhead sayin " Stupid..Stupid..Stupid!!...lmao...cya on the tblz.
/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif <--- Dunt ya love it?

Crazy

[popniklas]

Okay, everyone, thanks again for your advice. I have read most of the Zadeh and Wiesenberg books. Winning Poker Systems is a great resource indeed. I didn't like the Wiesenberg book, though. I found it chatty and unfocused, plus all of the disucssion of the game assumed the use of a bug and the jacks-or-better rule. (It seems good for lowball though, so I don't regret buying it.)

I have improved my draw game a lot and am winning regularly at Paradise. However, I still think I got a lot to learn, especially since I just got CRUSHED in my first shot at the 24h PL games, which made me feel quite pathetic.

Any advice on how to adjust to those game, compared to play at Paradise, would be appreciated. Do you raise the pot when you open? Raise another amount? Limp? Different plays with different hands?

I had no clue about that so I was basically experimenting. One thing that worked good was when I limped with 777 utg and then reraised the pot when someone raised. One player called and drew three. I drew one and bet half the pot after the draw. She folded. Otherwise I took down some pots predraw and lost most of the pots I played til showdown. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I felt clueluess in situations such as when I raised utg with Qs up and someone reraised the pot. (I called predraw, checked and called a small bet after the draw and was shown Ks up.)

And if you raise in EP with AA and someone rereaise, should you fold?

I'm sure this game is fun when you know how to play it well, but Paradise draw is a lot easier, at least for someone who sucks at big bet poker. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[crabbypatty]

[ QUOTE ]

Okay, everyone, thanks again for your advice. I have read most of the Zadeh and Wiesenberg books. Winning Poker Systems is a great resource indeed. I didn't like the Wiesenberg book, though. I found it chatty and unfocused, plus all of the disucssion of the game assumed the use of a bug and the jacks-or-better rule. (It seems good for lowball though, so I don't regret buying it.)


[/ QUOTE ]
sorry that you didn't get much from wisenberg's book. i thought the same thing the first time i read it. my advice play a little more and reread it. just the parts on double limit draw p.149 through no-limit draw p.163 of course you do have to make some adjustments because of the # of players and the joker but, you should get your investment in the book back by a very wide margin. (just for curoisity, how much did you pay for it, with shipping?)

[ QUOTE ]
I just got CRUSHED in my first shot at the 24h PL games, which made me feel quite pathetic. Any advice on how to adjust to those game, compared to play at Paradise, would be appreciated. Do you raise the pot when you open? Raise another amount? Limp? Different plays with different hands?


[/ QUOTE ]
well you are new to draw to begin with correct? getting crushed at big bet poker seems like an understandable thing.
i would advise to raise when you come into a pot. also to play squeakie tight. what limit are you starting at? in other words don't come in with less than aces. if you are playing the higher limits. 2-4 and up.(and i can't think of a reason why you would be) then you will have to come in with more hands but, that is another discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
I had no clue about that so I was basically experimenting. One thing that worked good was when I limped with 777 utg and then reraised the pot when someone raised. One player called and drew three. I drew one and bet half the pot after the draw. She folded. Otherwise I took down some pots predraw and lost most of the pots I played til showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]
i like this play.(first half) one question though: your position relative to the caller with AA?
what i don't like about this play is your bet postdraw. were you first to act? if so this makes a little more sense. were you willing to lay your hand down if raised the pot, which is substantial now? if you were last to act what do you think your opponent will call with? how about if they ck-raise you? are you going to lay it down now? maybe a better play with small trips is to draw 2 and ck it down or ck and call a single bet. many of the players there will draw 2 to big pairs so aces might bet at you if you draw 2. let's hear what the rest of the peanut gallery has to say about this one. <font color="red"> come on, speak up peanuts! </font>

[ QUOTE ]

I felt clueluess in situations such as when I raised utg with Qs up and someone reraised the pot. (I called predraw, checked and called a small bet after the draw and was shown Ks up.)

And if you raise in EP with AA and someone rereaise, should you fold?


[/ QUOTE ]
well as to getting crushed the first time you played. this may be why?
calling the reraise and the bet after the draw with QQXX. this is not a terrible play. questionable but not terrible. however this play is indicative that you were probably being <font color="blue"> held over</font> your entire session. sometimes you just can not win.
as to raising with AA and calling a reraise. first do you have position? did anyone limp behind you? do you know your opponent?
this game is ALL about position and knowing your opposition!
i would sooner call a reraise with AA than i would with QQJJ without more players to call me after the draw in case i fill with the 2pr. 10.75:1 against you btw. i would also prefer to have position. if i didn't know anything about my opponent i might call to learn but, it is much cheaper to let others do the calling for you and check the hand histories.

[popniklas]

I was playing the lowest limit, €0.25/0.5.

I'm fairly new to draw (except for home games), but I've been thinking a lot about the game lately and the last month and a half I've been winning regularly at the paradise draw games. (Win rate: $8.99/hr over 65 hours of $1/2 since I started to use StatKing in early April. Most of those hours I played two tables, so it's not like I've made 4.5 BB/hr per table.)

The thing is that the Paradise structure is the only draw game I've been playing seriously, plus my experience with pot limit play is very limited.

About the 777 play: caller held the button. I thought that after limping and then reraising the pot, it would be obvious that I had trips if I drew 2. Maybe you're right about checking after the draw, a reraise here would probably mean AAA and would be hard to call (then again it MIGHT have meant aces up or a bluff... what would you do in this situation?) and obviously, she would not call me with just AA here. All in all, if she improves to aces up, I'll probably get a little more money, but if she improves to AAA I'm screwed. Checking and calling is probably better, since it's safer, plus she might bet aces up (am I right?).

"however this play is indicative that you were probably being held over your entire session. sometimes you just can not win."

I don't really get what you mean here. That I had bad luck or that I was being outplayed? Or something else? Not familiar with the expression "being held over".

Also, a general question: if someone raises in early position, and another player reraises, what range of hands could the reraiser have? Good two pair or better? Is it depending on the size of the raises?

[crabbypatty]

glad to hear that you started at the lowest limit. smart move.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm fairly new to draw (except for home games), but I've been thinking a lot about the game lately and the last month and a half I've been winning regularly at the paradise draw games. (Win rate: $8.99/hr over 65 hours of $1/2 since I started to use StatKing in early April. Most of those hours I played two tables, so it's not like I've made 4.5 BB/hr per table.)

[/ QUOTE ]
this is definately a good win rate especially for this game. i know there are others saying that are making this much on 3 seperate tables for $1K/week sustained. not sure you can expect these kinds of results but, maybe it can be done.

[ QUOTE ]

About the 777 play: caller held the button. I thought that after limping and then reraising the pot, it would be obvious that I had trips if I drew 2. Maybe you're right about checking after the draw, a reraise here would probably mean AAA and would be hard to call (then again it MIGHT have meant aces up or a bluff... what would you do in this situation?) and obviously, she would not call me with just AA here. All in all, if she improves to aces up, I'll probably get a little more money, but if she improves to AAA I'm screwed. Checking and calling is probably better, since it's safer, plus she might bet aces up (am I right?).


[/ QUOTE ]
i agree that it would seem more obvious that you had trips when you limp-reraise and draw 2 but if you check it to the caller all you will have to call is the size of the pot. you just have to make a judgement on whether your opponent would bluff at you or not when you practically declare trips. your other problem is: with limp-reraising you are saying that you have a big hand(usually trips at the minimum). am i right? would you make this play with aces-up? might want to think about adding it to your game <font color="blue"> or </font>just drawing 2. most players at higher limits will read you for trips anyhow, even with drawing 1. (there are no absolutes but, that is usually the 'legitimate' minimum to make this play)
i think there is something to be said for drawing 1 to trips when you are up front. if your opponent makes 2 pair you just might get a bet out of them. i would however only check it to them and let them do the betting. unless you are willing to lay your hand down to a big reraise.(which could also be a bluff)

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really get what you mean here. That I had bad luck or that I was being outplayed? Or something else? Not familiar with the expression "being held over".

[/ QUOTE ]

what i mean is, yes, you may have had bad luck. if you held KK, your opponent has AA. if you have 777, your opponent has TTT. if you have a str8, he has a flush, etc. in other words he is always holding something bigger than you.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, a general question: if someone raises in early position, and another player reraises, what range of hands could the reraiser have? Good two pair or better? Is it depending on the size of the raises?

[/ QUOTE ]
i would say at least 2pr. i have been known to reraise with AA but, i am crazy /images/graemlins/wink.gif usually you will need to have a very strong hand to come in after 2 pot-sized raises. you would prefer to be able to put your whole stack in now. if the raises are small like +.25, +.25 and so on you can be fairly sure you are against AA or small 2pr. that is why they are raising small. they are afraid of their hands. as always you would love to know the other players tendencies and react accordingly. so keep notes!!!

[bigpooch]

Recently, there has been very good action at Poker Network
where you can also get a tiered rake rebate from one of the
skins (BetOnBet).

If you're there, you'll know who I am (unless someone also
plays more than 5 tables regularly)! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Notorious G.O.B.]

It seems to me that multitabling draw on London Poker Club would be very difficult, since they don't tell you how many cards everybody drew, once the betting round starts.

Incidentally, am I the only one who's upset that they added multitabling? This place used to be a gold mine, now it's a bed of rocks. Also, I think having different tables for each different currency is a mistake as well.

Have you tried out the action on Pokerroom, yet Pooch?

[bigpooch]

I've played on BetOnBet (a skin of Poker Room/Poker Network)
for less than a week and the action is exceptional.

There is possibly a software bug since although I cannot
attempt to open a fifth window to sit at a table with a
vacant seat, if I am summoned to a table because I have put
my name on the waiting list, another window appears and I
can play at this table. I have played up to seven tables
at BetOnBet and have more than half of the requisite number
of points to clear the $100 bonus so I haven't quite logged
a lot of hours yet to say much about the software and other
games (such as LHE). I'll say this though: the softest draw
games are at Poker Room.

I'll be unlucky if I am only up about $1000 at the end of
this week at the site (I am trying to seven-table more
regularly but the software is not as friendly as Paradise
for preselecting cards to discard)! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[popniklas]

I 2-tabled Sportingbet Pokers draw tables today (same as London Poker Club) and it was no problem. Sure, you had to stay focused in order not too miss any important information, and playing several tables at the same times would be tricky, but 2 tables were no problem.

And what rocks are you talking about? Not the guys I played with today, that's for sure. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[popniklas]

As a Swedish player, I am not allowed at Poker Room, but I think that BetOnBet would work.

Seems very good, I have pm:ed you about it.

[Notorious G.O.B.]

No rocks in draw, certainly, but the hold'em games are much worse than they were.