15/30 botched flush draw

[pokerjo22]

Fairly decent 15/30 game. Tends to be passive preflop, and then a mixed bag postflop. I have T9 of spades.

A loose-passive fish (seeing nearly every other hand) limps from UTG+1, followed by a solidish player, and a loose-aggressive fish.

I likewise limp. Player to my immediate left then raises (another solidish player). All fold including blinds, then all call including me.

Flop is 4s Qs Qh

All check to the raiser who bets. First fish folds, solid player raises, the rest of us all call. I'm normally nervous about going for a flush draw when the board is paired, but I can't imagine that either the solid players has Q4o, and 44 also seems unlikely. I'd normally raise for value, but the paired board dissuaded me.

Turn is 6c

Bet and we all call. At this point I'm feeling really bad about my hand. I'm sure the bettor has at least a Q, so a 6 of spades fills him up, or a spade which pairs his other card. Plus, what can my opponents be calling with? A suited, K suited or J suited all beat me. Plus I wasn't even closing the action with my bet. So does anyone fold here?

River 8s

Check, LAG fish bets, I raise, get reraised, and call. I think the raise is pretty bad. He was LAGGY enough to try and bluff the scare card, but even so I think its a terrible raise.

Anyway I hate my play of this hand, but I'm not sure whereabouts I start hating it /images/graemlins/smile.gif Comments welcomed please!

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm normally nervous about going for a flush draw when the board is paired

[/ QUOTE ]

don't be. sometimes boards like QQJ2T and that sort of thing can lead you to call with a made flush because of the boat possibilities but with a QQ4 flop your most straightforward concern is another 4 hitting with multiple people playing the flop or misc running board pairs.

as far as reraising the flop with a flush draw, i wouldn't be hot on it because reasonable people are gonna be in there with pairs and other flush draws. often random aces too, but when it is too multiway the flashers are on. i wouldn't feel great enough about a 10-high draw to be pumping it for value here. i'd rather let the clown hands stay in more easily and subsidize me for the times i do happen to lose to a boat or a better flush. you at least have reasonable equity against trips/good pairs.

i wouldn't have folded your hand, but i would have called the river. it's possible you're eating it to another flush, but the bigger thing is that you can go for overcalls here. similar or better amount of bets with less risk and more information. it's plausible to fold this one if it's raised behind you by somebody who basically can't be holding an 8-or-lower flush.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
At this point I'm feeling really bad about my hand. I'm sure the bettor has at least a Q, so a 6 of spades fills him up, or a spade which pairs his other card. Plus, what can my opponents be calling with? A suited, K suited or J suited all beat me. Plus I wasn't even closing the action with my bet. So does anyone fold here?

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point, there are 11.5 BB's in the pot. It's good that you are thinking about the paired board, but with this big of an overlay it's an easy call. We won't count the 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif as an out (obviously), and to be safe, we'll throw out another unknown spade that could fill somebody up. That still leaves us with 7 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
River 8s

Check, LAG fish bets, I raise, get reraised, and call. I think the raise is pretty bad. He was LAGGY enough to try and bluff the scare card, but even so I think its a terrible raise.

Anyway I hate my play of this hand, but I'm not sure whereabouts I start hating it /images/graemlins/smile.gif Comments welcomed please!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Astroglide here. Given your position, it's best to go for overcalls instead of raising. You will get some crying calls from weaker hands. If you raise, you might not get any callers and could be reraised by a better hand.

[pokerjo22]

Thanks for the comments guys. Fish had Js3s and MHING. Although I may have been results oriented, I couldn't see what else people could be drawing to at the turn.
*mutters* stupid river raise...

[Schizo]

I have T9 of spades.

Flop is 4s Qs Qh......River 8s

Fish had Js3s and MHING.

?????????

How does a Q-T high flush beat a Q-J high flush?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I have T9 of spades.

Flop is 4s Qs Qh......River 8s

Fish had Js3s and MHING.

?????????

How does a Q-T high flush beat a Q-J high flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't. You did see MHING, right?

[pokerjo22]

MHIG /images/graemlins/smile.gif

MHING /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
MHIG /images/graemlins/smile.gif

MHING /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

oops. /images/graemlins/blush.gif


I'll go back to lurking now.

[SpicyF]

I feel sorry for whatever plants died to produce your bandwidth.

[pokerjo22]

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

While you may suck at painting, I would still value your advice /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DcifrThs]

i dont raise the flop...and i only call the river given the action...

by not raising theflop i keep hands in there that i want and dont limit myself to only the good hands (q or pairs) staying in against me...

i think a boat isn't that likely and would play much differently if it were KsKdQs or QQJ etc..

but i think the main thing here is that in that context on the river, just calling is much more profitable than raising on a risk adjusted basis.

especially seeing as how you're hand is basically an opened book and you're likely to be raised by everything that beats you (Reraised) and not called after you raised by anything you beat (other than the initial bettor)

-Barron