To Everyone Who Suffers Downswings (long, low strategy content) [Archive]

View Full Version : To Everyone Who Suffers Downswings (long, low strategy content)

private joker

02-17-2005, 12:51 AM

There was an "I'm at the end of my rope" post a couple days ago, and many posters often write about the downswings. I'm in the midst of a hideous one myself. But what's important to note is that these downswings are *not* the result of just bad beats. Sure, we all suffer bad beats -- but those sort of hands suck to post and they have no relevance in the long run. What makes downswings more frustrating is when you play a hand very well from your point of view, but you lose because you were an underdog the whole time -- or just a slight favorite and the guy with odds to chase made his hand and beat you. Those are the kinds of beats we put on our opponents, so we need to understand that they happen to us as well. And they should.

Here are 11 hands I've played in the last 48 hours that constitute why I am suffering a downswing. None of the 11 are bad beats. (I've taken those too, but I smile about them because I know that money is coming back to me, and bad beat posts suck). These are just part of the variance that happens when you accept the standard deviation of Texas Hold'em Poker. When they all happen at the same time, that's a downswing. It really blows to have to fight through it, but that's what I'm doing.

Hand 1:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero caps, MP3 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP3 folds, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ac Kh (one pair, aces).
SB has 6c 8s (two pair, eights and sixes).
Outcome: SB wins 12.50 BB. 

Hand 2:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button folds.

Turn: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO calls.

River: (9 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Results in white below: 
MP1 has Ac Ah (one pair, aces).
CO has Js 7s (one pair, jacks).
Hero has As Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP1 wins 12 BB. 

Hand 3:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises, 3 folds, MP2 calls, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, BB folds.

River: (8.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qd Qs (two pair, queens and threes).
MP2 has Ad 3d (three of a kind, threes).
Outcome: MP2 wins 10.25 BB. 

Hand 4:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
4 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, MP2 folds, Button calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (7 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has As Qs (one pair, aces).
Button has Kh Ad (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Button wins 9 BB. 

Hand 5:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB calls.

River: (9.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qs As (one pair, aces).
Button has Ad Kd (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Button wins 11.25 BB. 

Hand 6:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
4 folds, MP3 raises, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qd As (full house, nines full of queens).
CO has Ad Ac (full house, nines full of aces).
Outcome: CO wins 12.75 BB. 

Hand 7:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks.

River: (5.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ah Ks (one pair, aces).
MP3 has Jd Jh (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: MP3 wins 9.75 BB. 

Hand 8:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 3-bets, 6 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

River: (8.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Jh Ah (two pair, jacks and sixes).
MP1 has Kc Js (two pair, kings and jacks).
Outcome: MP1 wins 10.75 BB. 

Hand 9:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
5 folds, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, Button calls.

Flop: (6 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, Button calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, Button calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Button folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad Jd (two pair, jacks and eights).
BB has Kh 4h (flush, king high).
Outcome: BB wins 11.50 BB. 

Hand 10:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 4 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
UTG folds, MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Results in white below: 
MP2 has Th Jh (flush, ace high).
Hero has Js As (two pair, aces and sevens).
Outcome: MP2 wins 10.25 BB. 

Hand 11:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below: 
MP2 has 9h 4h (two pair, nines and fours).
Hero has Kc Ac (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP2 wins 10.75 BB.

private joker

02-17-2005, 06:05 AM

That said, does anyone disagree with how these hands were played? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Shillx

02-17-2005, 06:12 AM

All these hands look fine to me

Brad

Chairman Wood

02-17-2005, 06:15 AM

Well, I only feel like doing Hand 1, maybe a few more I 'll get to later but Hand 1 looks good. I might not cap preflop without a read saying PF 3-bettor will get a little too aggresive. You are OOP.

jason_t

02-17-2005, 06:20 AM

I play all these the same. Where did you find all these passive opponents in the first few hands?

I really like the river check in Hand #8; good read of villian's possible holdings.

kurosh

02-17-2005, 07:12 AM

I 3-bet hand 6. Can you really put villain on KK/AA or a 9?

Rocco

02-17-2005, 07:17 AM

Great post... I've yet to suffer a downswing bigger than 100BB but I know it'll happen anytime. This morning I dropped about 50 and the hands I lost with are similar to yours. Most of those 50 BB:s i dropped was due to bad beats though. If all is in order I'm back to winning tomorrow, but the bad strek is probably coming around.

private joker

02-17-2005, 07:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet hand 6. Can you really put villain on KK/AA or a 9?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a 9. But yes, KK at least, or AA, or a chopping KQ. I wanted to catch a spade to win, but when we both filled up, I didn't think he would all of a sudden raise with a worse hand. Given my flop aggression, he knows I have at least a pair of queens. If he's still raising, 3-betting is carelessly spewing because it opens me up to a cap that I would have to cry and call, but wouldn't want to.

And if I remember correctly, my read was that he was fairly tight.

jason_t

02-17-2005, 07:53 AM

I'm not 3-betting because I don't want to call a cap, but would have to. At best, the pot is a split. After the flop action, there is no way CO is raising with worse than a pair of Q there. Reads would help in making this decision too.

Danenania

02-17-2005, 07:59 AM

Hand 8 you missed a river bet. Hand 7 I could fold the river against many 2/4 players. Also I 3-bet Hand 6 PF.

jason_t

02-17-2005, 08:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 8 you missed a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you folding to a raise?

What do you put villian on there? JT, QT, QJ, KJ are the obvious choices. I'm check/calling a river 8, T, Q, K.

DeeJ

02-17-2005, 08:15 AM

Hand 1 you can't do much about. He can't raise you because of the flush/straight, and vice versa.
Hand 2 you can pat yourself on the back that you didn't lose more money, MP1 could have raised somewhere which you probably have to call.
Hand 3 again MP2 misses a river raise, you get off lightly.
Hand 4,5 AK beats AQ for kicker. Always /images/graemlins/smile.gif will happen the other way too.
Hand 6 yeah not a lot you can do here. You missed your flush draw.
Hand 7 he gives you a free card to improve. I wouldn't complain about this, mostly you will miss at the river but would you fold to a bet?

The others later if you're interested.

maryfield48

02-17-2005, 08:36 AM

Is it impossible to fold to the flop bet in hand 5? My experience is that PF 3-bets at 2/4 generally mean real strength. I would think you'd be looking at QQ/AK/KK/AA a significant portion of the time here.

Subject to individual reads, of course.

gaming_mouse

02-17-2005, 10:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 8 you missed a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that is a value bet?

Nate tha' Great

02-17-2005, 10:36 AM

Your opponents play just terribly. Is this normal for 2/4? If so you guys should be beating the games for like 5 BB/100. I'm not kidding.

sfer

02-17-2005, 11:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponents play just terribly. Is this normal for 2/4? If so you guys should be beating the games for like 5 BB/100. I'm not kidding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some do/did.

meanjean

02-17-2005, 11:14 AM

I did the end of my rope post and yeah they were bad beats but I posted them not for pity but to make sure that I wasn't missing ways to get out of bad situations...I'm sorry if you hated it but I was truely reevaluating my game from the ground up and they were relevent to me. Perhaps I aint too bright or lagging behind on the learning curve but sometimes I feel the need to recheck my basics

Brainwalter

02-17-2005, 01:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet hand 6. Can you really put villain on KK/AA or a 9?

[/ QUOTE ]

3-betting is bad if we can put villain on KK/AA, a 9, or a Q.

private joker

02-17-2005, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it impossible to fold to the flop bet in hand 5? My experience is that PF 3-bets at 2/4 generally mean real strength. I would think you'd be looking at QQ/AK/KK/AA a significant portion of the time here.

Subject to individual reads, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't remember the read I had on that particular hand, but I probably would have folded the flop if he was the type to raise PF less than 5% of the time. But also, I'm getting 12:1 on my flop call. If I don't improve on the turn I fold. But a Q puts me ahead of AK, JJ, TT, etc., and an A puts me ahead of KK, QQ, etc. That's why I bet when the A came out to see how he reacted. He slowed down, so I put him on KK.

private joker

02-17-2005, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponents play just terribly. Is this normal for 2/4? If so you guys should be beating the games for like 5 BB/100. I'm not kidding.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is normal for 2/4. And I was beating it for just over 4/100 after my first 15k hands, but now at 20k, this downswing has dragged me to 2/100. I'm not complaining at all about how horrible my opponents are -- hence the tone of my original post; in fact, I'm glad I didn't lose more on these hands from value raises that 5/10 and 10/20 players would be making. But I'll be damned if I wasn't surprised to see what was shown down after my opponents just called these river bets.

(Also: I try to practice good table selection, so my opponents in these hands are probably what I consider to be some of the fishiest I could find at the moment; I'm sure there are better 2/4 players -- I just avoid them).

private joker

02-17-2005, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I did the end of my rope post and yeah they were bad beats but I posted them not for pity but to make sure that I wasn't missing ways to get out of bad situations...I'm sorry if you hated it but I was truely reevaluating my game from the ground up and they were relevent to me. Perhaps I aint too bright or lagging behind on the learning curve but sometimes I feel the need to recheck my basics

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't hate your post; I sympathized with it. I just thought there was another side to the downswing that needed to be expressed. Good luck.

bones

02-17-2005, 04:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, K.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8, J, 6 (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button folds.

Turn: (6 BB) K (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO calls.

River: (9 BB) 9 (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Results in white below:
MP1 has Ac Ah (one pair, aces).

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I've ever seen someone that passive.