Bankroll Help

[redsoxsox]

When is the best time to move up in bankroll. I have $250 right now in my bankroll and I play 5.50 sng's. Should i e moving up or wait till $300 or more.

[ZebraAss]

How long have you been playing. Do you play 1 tournament at a time?

[wiggs73]

More importantly, are you a winning player at the 5.50's? Generally, if you're winning at that level, you probably could be winning at the 11s as well.

[ZebraAss]

No that is not more important. If you make 1 cent for every tournament over 20,000 tournaments and now are at 250 bucks you are a winning player at 5+.5 but there is no way to know where you stand at 10+1. There is no way you can tell if you are a winning player by how much $ you have. You need # of T's.

Details. From the info you stated I say that you play 5+.5 until you have 1,000.

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
If you make 1 cent for every tournament over 20,000 tournaments and now are at 250 bucks you are a winning player at 5+.5 but could be a losing player at 10+1

[/ QUOTE ]

Pardon my lack of details. When I say winning player, I don't mean having a .0018% ROI over 20,000 SNGs. With this in mind, if you started at like $50 bucks and ran it up to $250 with not much trouble, you are likely a 'winning' player at this level. I realize that would be a short term gain, and often short term gains aren't a great measure of success, but having played both levels we are talking about, as well as 20+2s, I can tell you there isn't much of a difference in skill levels between the 5.50s and the 11s. I say build up just a bit more, maybe to 300 and take a shot at the 11s. If you lose back down to say 200, move back down.

[ZebraAss]

Well having experience in the 5+1...and up to the 200+15. I can tell you right now that there is a difference. He should stay where he is. Until he has at least $500. If he turned 50 into 250 with strictly 5.5 tournaments he has a lot of self control and should build a rock solid bankroll so he can move up with out any hurdles.

Why go into the hot tub when the pool is already warm, whether you peed in it or not.

[wiggs73]

I will stand by my statement that the 11s are not much harder to beat than the 5.50s. This in mind, here is what you SHOULD do...

Play 5.50's until at you have a bankroll of at least $550 (50 buy-ins at the 10+1 level). You'll gain experience and a more stable bankroll this way. If you lose down to $275, move back to the 5.50s (275 = 50 buy-ins at this level). Obviously, the more bankroll you have, the less risk you run of going broke. You don't need a 10+1er or a 200+15er to tell you this.

What I was saying is that if you're a good player, you'll probably be safe to take a shot now. Don't confuse "take a shot" with "play till you go broke". Lots of people take shots. Some result in 3-5 immediate losses, an ego check, and a move back down to the previous level. Some result in a nice win streak and they never look back. I wouldn't advise moving up on a weak bankroll if you were considering a move to from the 33s to the 55s. There's a rather large difference in skill level there and you will more than likely need a proper bankroll to make such a jump. And while there is a difference in skill between any 2 levels, it will be much less drastic between the 5.50s and the 11s. If you feel like you're playing the 5.50s well, I say build up a bit more money, and play a few 11s. Some would disagree. I guess choose your side on this one. I'm certainly not going to advise against taking ZebraAss' advice, as it is much safer, but again, I think you could at least play a few at a higher level and see how the competition is and how you do.

[ZebraAss]

/images/graemlins/confused.gifWhere is this guy...

...I still want to know details. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[redsoxsox]

Im a winning player on SNGs. Have a good percentage of in the moneys and have played well over 100. Cant say the same for cash games though. I think I will play a few more 5.50 sngs then take a stab at the 10+1 sngs.

[PDX_David]

I have only played 5.50s - 22s.

Why not just take a shot at the 10+1 here and there, see how it feels to you. Just because you play one 10+1 doesn't mean you have to play all 10+1s from then on. Plus, every table is different. You will run in to nut jobs at all levels. Some of the tightest SnG's I have played have been at the 5.50 level. Your not going to go broke playing a couple of 10s.

pdx

[ZebraAss]

You know some people play over 100 SNG's in one weekend. There is absolutely no way in the world you could know if you are a winning player with 100. My 5 year old sister could be a winning player with only 100 tournaments at 5.5.

Provided that I had a sister...and that she was 5...and that she played 100 tournaments at 5.5.

[wiggs73]

I must agree, 100 SNGs are not statistically relevant.

[Karak567]

I would take their advice and play 1000 at the 5.50 level. If you are even above average, you should at least break even and this way you can identify and plug leaks in your game.

I know I moved up too fast without plugging the leaks in my game.

[1C5]

I just started playing also but on party so I went straight to the $11 ones as the rake is too high on the $5 ones.

I have only played 120 games so too small of a sample size but my plan is to play 500 games at $11, see where I stand and if I am a winning player. Thenafter 500 wil decide if I want to stay in the $11s for a while more or then try the $22s.

[DustinG]

I just wanted to say that I agree w/ PDX David completely. When I made the jump from 5's to the 10's I was winning at the tens right away and didnt look back. I'm currently trying to move up to the 33s w/ less succsess, so I play in some 33s when I feel good, and if I get my ass handed to me, I jump back down to the tens. Currently I have bank roll of about 700. But 250 is a fine amount to do the same thing I'm doing but w/ 5 and 10 dollar games.

Dustin

[redsoxsox]

I have had a chance to play the 10+1 and the 20+2 when I won tourny money at the poker stars site. I will say that I did have the best success at the 20+2 dollar tables and little success at 10+1 but I didnt get enough of a sample to know if I will actually go broke at that level. If I were to have $500 in my bankroll should I still try a stab at the 20+2

[redsoxsox]

True 100 SNGS isnt a big enough sample but I have played well over 100, but I never kept stats of how many. I am a winning player on the 5.50 SNGs though.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to say that I agree w/ PDX David completely. When I made the jump from 5's to the 10's I was winning at the tens right away and didnt look back. I'm currently trying to move up to the 33s w/ less succsess, so I play in some 33s when I feel good, and if I get my ass handed to me, I jump back down to the tens. Currently I have bank roll of about 700. But 250 is a fine amount to do the same thing I'm doing but w/ 5 and 10 dollar games.

Dustin

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you forget to play the 20s on your way to the 30s?

[microbet]

R U serious?

[adanthar]

Jebus, you guys are all so weak/tight when it comes to low limit bankrolls.

[ QUOTE ]
My 5 year old sister could be a winning player with only 100 tournaments at 5.5.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about a 5 year old but I bet I could teach an eight year old to beat 5.5's. What's more, he or she would be a statistically significant winner after 100. If every player waited 1000 SNG's at every limit you guys would all still be playing $10's and comparing each other's notes about how right it is to fold AA PF.

If you ran a 50 dollar bankroll up to 250 you're way overdue for the 11's and can probably beat the 22's. Play the 11's until you hit 500 bucks (they're exactly the same as the 5's, I promise) and move up again. If you slide back down to 250, move back to the 11's since you probably found a leak the hard way, but odds are it won't happen.

ROR at those limits is meaningless because an eight year old could beat them and a thirteen year old could crush them. If you're playing properly and have won 40 buyins at the 5's you're wasting your time and are only developing bad habits that won't get you anywhere higher up*.

*Ever wonder why I keep posting to push PF at low buyins?

[DustinG]

[ QUOTE ]


Did you forget to play the 20s on your way to the 30s?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play on Pacific Poker and they dont really have 20s. They do, but they are 6 handed and I'm more comfortable starting at a full table. Perhaps I should try those games though. I think the money works out the same in those 6 handed 20s, 50 for first, 30 for second and 20 for third.

But for 10 person games the next step after the 10's there is the 30s for single table games. But there are 16 + 1.60 two table games which I've been playing a lot in too.

Also I'll add the I think the structure at Pacific is better than party's. 1000 in chips instead of 8 and the blinds go up every 15 hands instead of ten and this suits my tight/patient style a little better.

Edited to say I forget 20 bucks in the 6 handed 20+2 payoff structure- it is 60 for first, 36 for second, and 24 for third

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
Jebus, you guys are all so weak/tight when it comes to low limit bankrolls.

[ QUOTE ]
My 5 year old sister could be a winning player with only 100 tournaments at 5.5.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about a 5 year old but I bet I could teach an eight year old to beat 5.5's. What's more, he or she would be a statistically significant winner after 100. If every player waited 1000 SNG's at every limit you guys would all still be playing $10's and comparing each other's notes about how right it is to fold AA PF.

If you ran a 50 dollar bankroll up to 250 you're way overdue for the 11's and can probably beat the 22's. Play the 11's until you hit 500 bucks (they're exactly the same as the 5's, I promise) and move up again. If you slide back down to 250, move back to the 11's since you probably found a leak the hard way, but odds are it won't happen.

ROR at those limits is meaningless because an eight year old could beat them and a thirteen year old could crush them. If you're playing properly and have won 40 buyins at the 5's you're wasting your time and are only developing bad habits that won't get you anywhere higher up*.

*Ever wonder why I keep posting to push PF at low buyins?

[/ QUOTE ]

How many games and/or bankroll would you suggest I play and buildup until I take a shot at the 22s?

[Apathy]

I think the best advice for you is to play some 20s if you feel like you are consistently one of the better players at the table.

People here seem to be too rigid in moving up standards, who cares if you can't beat the 20s but can beat the tens, you won't know unlesss you try. Take a shot at the occasional 20 as lng as you have more then 400 bucks, and if you lose a few play the tens some more. When you "move up" You aren't married to your new level.

You know about a month ago I was playing 30s and 50s at the same time ooooo I must be a badass.

Theres nothing wrong with mixing in the occasional higher level game to get a feel for it, and playing 1000 sngs at the 5.50s or even the 10s, is ridiculous advice.

Some tips for moving up:

Make sure you are moving up for the right reason, don't move up because you are on a losing streak and want to make it back quick

You are allowed to play more then one level at once, try switching back and forth to see how comfortable you are at a higher level

Always play less tables when you start out a new level, if you play 4 usually play two, if you play two play one.

Concentrate hard on your play as soon as you move up, post some hands and ask questions, I have moved from the 10s, 20s, 30s and 50s in the last two months and had never played the 50s before until a few weeks ago, I tried a few out with about a 1200 BR, did well, and really felt that I was always the best player at the table (whether this is true or not /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) I have been 4 tabling them since then for about 41% ITM over a couple hundred tournies (I play too much).

I understand that moving up can be scary but the point I'm trying to emphasize is it doesnt hurt to take a few shots at higher level games.

To the OP, move up from the 5.50s NOW, if you somehow drop ten buyins ($110) at the tens then move down but I have a feeling you will be fine, or you can take my advice and just mix in a few tens, like play 1 in every 3 tournies a ten instead of a 5 until you are comfortable.

Good luck.

[1C5]

Thanks for the post. How many games did you play at each level before moving upi and how were your results at each level?

[Apathy]

Well I already knew I could beat the 20s as I had played about 500 SNGs a few months ago with a 27% roi. I had to cut my BR down to nothing for non poker reasons so I spent my time studying more then playing and when I came back felt that I was much better then when I stopped. I started with 250 and played the tens (4 tables) until I had 600 which took a couple weeks, I honestly didn't keep great stats but I would estimate I played about 150-200 10s. Then I played about 200 20s started mixing in the 30s. Bank roll wise I find the jump from 20s to 30s to be much easier then from tens to twenties becuase its only 1.5X the buy in as opposed to double. I moved up for good when I was around 1500 or so. Then after a good run in the 30s and some minor MTT success I had about a 2300 BR and moved up to othe 50s (two tables) until I felt comfortable, now I usually play 4.

I probably should have played more 30s games but I just felt that I was better then the field and it was that feeling (and the money I was making) that caused me to move up quickly.

[murfnyc]

[ QUOTE ]

Play 5.50's until at you have a bankroll of at least $550 (50 buy-ins at the 10+1 level). You'll gain experience and a more stable bankroll this way. If you lose down to $275, move back to the 5.50s (275 = 50 buy-ins at this level).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this bankroll strategy. I use 50 buy-ins for SNGs, 100 buy-ins for MTTs and 300 BB's for cash games as a minumum bankroll to play any level.

I think this strategy allows you to move up levels (which is my goal) at a fairly quick pace (given you are a winning player), but also provides some bankroll protection if you hit a losing streak (you have to move down in levels).