Two TPTK's out of Postion

[jhall23]

Yes, being out of postion really sucks. I think I could have played each of these hands better would like to hear everybody's lines on both.

Hand 1: My first orbit at the table. Have seen a few hands before the blinds hit me and villian in this hand has been in like 8 of 11 or so and has bet at pots when checked to after the flop. So definetly points to laggy, but he has yet to raise PF in any of the hands. Being my first orbit I don't really feel like raising this UTG. Don't know his raising standards yet at all but could see a bully trying to buy the pot with all the limping. Reverse scenario could be he see's lots of flops cheap and only raises premium holdings. So I decide to call the bet. Flop is good for my hand but not one of the best flops without the flush draw. Haven't seen what this guy does when people play back at him and can be sure he will bet so I opt for a min-raise. I normally don't min-raise but I figure any more and I am committed and I don't know if I like that. On party with 50xbb stacks I'll go to the felt no problem. After the re-raise all in I give him the benefit of the doubt for AA-QQ. Looking at it afterwards I may have been asking to be bluffed out with the re-raise. I was split about calling but as this was his first raise pf I leaned to fold.

So anyways, do you fold PF? If not do you lead the flop, check/raise or check call. And of course how much for the bets.


Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+2 ($9.40)
MP1 ($25)
MP2 ($5.50)
MP3 ($39.55)
CO ($7.45)
Button ($21)
SB ($31.55)
BB ($17.30)
Hero ($24.40)
UTG+1 ($16.80)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $1.6</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls $1.35, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

Flop: ($4.05) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets $4.05</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8.1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $28.35</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $40.50


Hand 2: Villian is new to the table so not much of a sample on him but he has only seen 1/3 or so of the flops in about 12 hands.

Standard raise of 4xbb first in and follow up bet on flop. Don't know what to think of the min-raise and for some reason I just call. Then I'm thinking I don't want to play a huge pot with TPTK out of position so check and hope to get a check behind. Ugg no luck now I am to worried about a set or even a straight and can't tell if I induced a bluff cause I have no reads so I fold.

I am thinking I should have either popped back on the flop or lead the turn. With no reads it's probably wishfull thinking to get a check behind. Right now I would lean to re-raising on the dumb min-raise probably to about 10-12.



Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.25 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 ($8.05)
CO ($26.35)
Button ($17.35)
SB ($9.50)
BB ($26)
UTG ($36.60)
UTG+1 ($11)
Hero ($27.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $1, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($2.35) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $4</font>, Hero calls $2.

Turn: ($10.35) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $10.35</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $20.70

[istewart]

Hand 1: Fold PF. And don't check-minraise, it tells you nothing really.

Hand 2: You're looking at a set it appears.

[ihardlyknowher]

Hand 1: If he rarely raises preflop, when he does, he has a great hand. I would fold pre-flop out of position here. My guess is he has AA or KK here, certainly does not have a 4 unluess he is overplaying 54s. Once in the hand, I love the min-raise because it gets him to tell you that he has you beat, which he has. Without a great read (which it seems you did not have), folding to his big flop bet is a no brainer.

Hand 2: I agree you should have reraised on the flop. Again, without a good read, you have to lay it down on the turn.

Just my thought of course.

[jhall23]

It's hard to really say if he doesn't raise much pre-flop or not yet as my sample size is too small. Just something I noticed in my limited sample. Probably can't put too much stock in it yet.

Istewart, I agree it looks like I am looking at a set here but I am looking for a better line. Do you think I played it optimally or would you do anything different.

[istewart]

Maybe bet the turn again. Checking just gives up the pot. If you get raised again it's an easy fold. I don't play Party with shortstacks though /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[jhall23]

FWIW, this is UB with 100xbb stacks.

[istewart]

I'm an idiot. I just assume everything is Party.

[jhall23]

Nobody else? I was hoping these hands would create a little more dialog.

[PoBoy321]

Hand 1 looks fine, although I lead on the flop.

Hand 2 is a little bit more tricky. What hands that beat you is the CO going to call pre-flop with? K9? 8T? I would reraise on the flop and fold to a push, although I have seen players at this level make the same plays with KQ or worse.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Who is the villain in hand 1? I know a lot of the people there and that would certainly make a difference if it is a regular. In any case, I check/call the flop and check the turn. Most people won't fire a second shot on the turn there with a hand that can't beat TPTK. And if he does bet again, the size of his bet will usually give away the strength of his hand.

Hand 2: I like a stop and go here. If you re-raise the flop, you are charging him a bit more to draw if he is drawing, but you are quickly approaching pot committal. If you call the flop raise and then lead the turn, you keep the pot a bit smaller and keep charging him to draw without getting pot committed if he is indeed drawing. If he raises you again on the turn, I would drop it assuming I am against a straight, two pair, or a set.

[jhall23]

Thanks guys.

Didn't see either of you criticize the PF call in hand one. Do you guys make the call most of the time given the info I've provided?

Worst, Villian in hand 1 was Thomas o. I only have about 2,000 hands on UB so I don't really know any regulars. I do have 122 hands on you though /images/graemlins/tongue.gif . What a suprise you are TAG.

I think I like check/call - check especially if the initial indications that he is lag especially post flop are true. Do you like calling the turn anything under 1/2 pot? What would you interpret from a 1/2 pot bet? Worst card to see is probably a K. I think I have been getting better at the calling down a lag line but it can make me very uneasy. Say he throws out 4 again and I call, pot is now 16 and I have 14 left. Checking a third time seems dangerous on the river, blocking bet of like 6 dollars good or is check call still the best. If he's a good lag a third check would probably make him move in on the river I would think.

Hand 2. I like it, I can easily see villian having one of the low sets, less likely a straight, and probably less likely two pair for the hands that beat me. Possible a lower pair or nothing hands that don't. If I bet out 7 I think that should do what I want it to.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Hopefully you have me as a winner. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I don't know that guy, so can't help you out with any additional info. If he bets anything less than pot on the turn, I think I am pushing. The call is fine against someone who seems loose and is raising from late position.

[Kaz The Original]

Ah, the little leaks, the sweetest, and the most dangerous. It should be obvious MP3 does not have a 4. So if he's beating you now, he was KILLING you preflop. He didn't outflop you, not on that flop. Don't be routinely calling with AQ here, not against tight players.

Also, make real raises. Don't make min raises.

I like check raising allin on the turn in the second hand but I'm crazy.

[jhall23]

You bet 122 hands, amount won 3.90, BB/100 6.39

You probably have me as a looser in there. I only saw you when I first got an account about 1 month ago. I was welcomed to UB with a combo of a swing and a little time getting adjusted to the bigger stacks. Was down even with the bonus. Luckily I've had better luck since, got my bonus cleared and then some /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jhall23]

I definetly didn't read MP3 as tight, he was in 8 of the first 11 hands I saw at the table. I agree that if I was beat it was not the 4. That was such a remote possibility in my mind I didn't really consider it. How to play best to find out where I am and loose less when behind and more when ahead is what I am looking for. I definetly didn't think my check/min-raise was the best after review so I posted the hand.

Interesting on hand 2. Are you reading the min-raise as the old they think I missed my overs try and win the pot cheap trick (possible with a lower pair) and then expect them to continue with the agression on the turn?