Rake increases at Mirage and Bellagio

[Clarkmeister]

All raked games were increased to a $4 rake, and several of the games had the rakes more frontloaded on top of the increase. While this will probabaly have little effect on the weekends, it will absolutely kill their weekday action. Daytime games, which are sparse and slow anyways are going to be hit the hardest.

This is not LA with an endless supply of people and money to fill the tables. The weekday games are well over 80% local and when the rake increases start to take their toll on some of the old retiree donaters, there is will be no one to take their place.

Does MGM-Mirage just not want the rooms to be successful in the long term? I would assume that it is tough to keep a room going based only on weekend action.

[AceHigh]

That's the same as Atlantic City, so it might not be as bad as you fear.

[MichaelD]

Clarkmeister,

Here in Chicago, the rake is $5 per hand. We have always been envious of those of you in Vegas who were fortunate enough to have such a reasonable rake. I am sorry to see the rake increase because it is taking more money out of the poker economy; but I do not think it will have a very negative impact over the long term in regards to games getting off. Maybe in the short term some will not play in protest, but long term, I think the games will still be strong.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.

I also play Harrahs-E.Chicago{great Town}We pay a $5rake BUT we got a BUZILLION people around here....There are alot of GOOD players that play between the 40yrd. lines {at a $3rake}At a $5rake thier losing Now the casino loses them.Unstead of the game consisting of:ABCDE players It's got's A...B...& a little of this & little of that.Next the casino got's the A players a few B's&some walk ins..You-all know what happens next---SLOTS /forums/images/icons/frown.gif H.N.}

[Mason Malmuth]

"Does MGM-Mirage just not want the rooms to be successful in the long term? I would assume that it is tough to keep a room going based only on weekend action."

I think this is hitting the nail on the head. My guess is that business, especially on week days, will be much slower a year from now.

MM

[Mason Malmuth]

I have always believed that in those areas where the population base is very large a high rake is to the benefit of expert players. It helps to contribute to knocking out new players before they learn to play tight. It's like paying a little extra to get novice players in your game.

However, Las Vegas, does not have this large population base. <font color="red"> So I believe it will hurt here. </font color>

Best wishes,
Mason /forums/images/icons/mad.gif

[mikelow]

But doesn't that make the games worse in the long run by chasing out the weaker players sooner as they go broke faster? Now Las Vegas is a fast growing area, so maybe the player base can expand.

BTW, was the collection increased at the Bellagio 30-60 and 60-120 games?

[PokerBabe(aka)]

As of today, there is a 10-20 at Mandalay Bay with a 3 buck max rake. Babe

[Clarkmeister]

Sweet. Just need to get the word out.

In addition, the Stardust has had a very lively 6-12 game going the last 2 days. $3 rake + $1 Jackpot. But its a 5% rake vs the nearly 10% at Mirage, and you essentially get a freeroll at the 88k bad beat.

[Mikey]

I guess that's good for the Casino because when i was there this past Friday they couldn't even get a 6-12 going at around 11pm - 1am so I guess when there is a rep of a higher game going, more people will want to move there and play.

MAN..... A $3 RAKE MAX, for a 10-20 game, I WISH it was like that here.

Here it's a $5 collection per half hour!!!!

You guys have it so good in Vegas! I'm jealous.

[Jimbo]

Mikey,

Isn't $5 per half hour nearly equivalent to a $3 max rake?

Jimbo

[Mikey]

well I'm not really sure, that's a good point.
Way to stay on Top of Things.

[Clarkmeister]

No. Jim Brier calculated once that he averages about 2.2 pots per hour. That is roughly equal to a $6.60/hr charge for a $3 rake game. Significantly less than $10/hr.

[Mikey]

[Clarkmeister]

I wasn't there yesterday, but now I hear from the Babe that the 10-20 at the Mirage didn't go. All the regulars moved to the Mandalay Bay game and the Mirage 10-20 is now dead.

So the Mirage holdem lineup during the day now consists of three 3-6 games, a 20-40 game and nothing else. Nicely done MGM-Mirage.

[D. Andrew]

I wonder if J&amp;J moved also?

is tighter than a hatband!!! Who else here plays 2.2 hands per hour? (while you are awake)

[Dynasty]

The 2.2 figure is pots won per hour- not played.

[Dynasty]

It's one year since the Mirage and Bellagio increased their rakes from $3 to $4.

I don't think it can be said that their business has been hurt at all by the rake increase. The # of games both the Bellagio and Mirage have seem to be on par with a year ago (except for stud games which moved from the Mirage to Bellagio for non-rake reasons).

Most of the regulars still seem to be around playing at the same limits they always play at. And several new regulars have arrived.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Clarkmeister,

Where exactly are the break points on collecting rake at Mirage/Bellagio, expecially in the smaller games? For example, years ago in the small games (not spread limit stud) it was one dollar on $20 of called action, a second dollar on $40 of called action and so on.

Rick

[Clarkmeister]

I think an argument can be made that the growth of poker as a whole has overridden the adverse effects of the rake increase. I know of several poker rooms that are currently running at 50+% increases year over year right now without rake increases. It is entirely possible that the poker market growth (as evidenced by TV ratings, 2+2 book sales, etc) is camouflaging the harm that has been done to the rooms.

I do think it is interesting that the 10-20 is no longer a 100% reliable game while the 20-40 is basically a sure thing. Also note that most of the former 10-20 hard-core regulars now play either the 15-30 or the 20-40. I think this is due at least in part to the rake increase.

[Vehn]

I would say my room here has grown by about 15% in the past year. Our rake has stayed the same ($4 max, usually quickly maxed, $1 JP drop at limits below $10/$20). However most of the growth is at the low limits. I was only playing $6/$12 a year ago though so I may be off base, but I remember there only being 2-3 mid limit games going at any time and thats what it is now. $30/$60 hold'em now goes every day as opposed to 2-3 times per month, though. Canterbury's problem, however, is they always run out of tables (35) on weekend evenings.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

I think you have this absolutely right. The huge increase in the interest in poker has temporarily masked the long term damage that a rake increase can do.

best wishes,
Mason

[clovenhoof]

The first one isn't for Mason, 'cuz he answered it below when he said a higher rake helps the sharks.

1. Do you still play at the Mirage and/or the Bellagio?
2. Is there another "contender" cardroom in Vegas that can step up, promote a lower rake, and take away business from M &amp; B? Or, are the M &amp; B basically the Pepsi and Coke of the poker room business in Vegas?

'hoof

[Clarkmeister]

The hope is that when Steve Wynn opens Wynn Las Vegas late next year(Formerly the Desert Inn) that he aggressively attempts to capture the medium stakes market away from Bellagio and Mirage. Until then, the Big Two basically are uncontested.

[GOODBEATGUY2001]

Babe,

The poker room at the MB is nice but have you tried the Orleans? They have mostly low limit games but they also run HE and Omaha 8 tournaments which they held in one of their convention rooms and it was packed. Am not sure how well the games are run as I attended only once in my last visit.

GBG

[budman]

I don't mind the rake increase for several reasons:

1.) It makes the room more profitable for the casino, which makes it easier for them to comp me a room.

2.) If it chases away some of you sharks and leaves just us tourists, that's fine with me.

3.) They deserve the extra rake. They create a nice atmosphere with well trained dealers and excellent cocktail service.

[budman]

I don't buy that argument. I was a very weak player for years (now I have improved to just weak) and the extra $1 or $2 that I gave up on the few pots I won was a small percentage of my total losses.

If I were to give up before getting particularly skillful it would be due to the constant $600 -$1200 weekly losses. If I were to get a $5 bonus on every pot I won I would still be a huge loser.

Rather, what keeps me in the game is the occasional wins, and the enjoyment I get from playing. A nice environment is more important to me than the rake.

A better way to keep weak players out of the game would be to ridicule them and have the dealers be rude, etc.

And I don't understand why you would want to keep weak players out of the pool anyway. Unless you could consistently get them to donate until the moment they became aware, getting them out of the game just reduced the easy money the sharks can pick up.