(some)2+2 forum moderators are a joke.

[partygirluk]

They ban great posters for stupid reasons, remove avatars because 1 user got slightly offended by it, but meanwhile let many of the (numerous) useless posters - who just troll, spam products and/or are abusive and deliberately unhelpful to other posts - remain.

I don't know who is responsible for some of the authoritarian and ludicrous recent decisions. So I apologise to those people involved in this website who are not guilty of the power crazy lunacy. But to whoever so enjoying flexing his/her muscles, please remember that your prime concern should be to encourage quality posters and thought provoking threads, and not to show off your might by pandering to any (real or hypothetical) ultra-sensitive minorities.

[tdarko]

maybe this is the right time to ask b/c i was confused, i thought the alizee avatars were banned(reason i dont know) but some still have them?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe this is the right time to ask b/c i was confused, i thought the alizee avatars were banned(reason i dont know) but some still have them?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the Alizee avatars were banned because they were slowing everything down. The bigger problem is that serious contributors (e.g. sthief09) are being banned for their choice of language (complete bullshit) whereas others (e.g. nongice626) are obvious trolls who post racist garbage and aren't being banned.

[partygirluk]

I don't think Nongice should be banned. His post had content, and was in the correct forum. But I would much rather see him bad than Freakin', Sponger, or Sthief.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think Nongice should be banned. His post had content, and was in the correct forum. But I would much rather see him bad than Freakin', Sponger, or Sthief.

[/ QUOTE ]
what did they do?? i usually dont even bother with the "blacks bother me" or "asians suck" or whatever other racist garbage (assumptions completely of course) threads. maybe i should thumb through them next time so i dont miss the hype. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[partygirluk]

Nongice made an ignorant and bigoted post about blacks. But he should have the right to do it IMO.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
Nongice made an ignorant and bigoted post about blacks. But he should have the right to do it IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, unfortunately, your opinion is irrelevant, go run your own forum and YOU can decide whom to ban and whom not to. The mods of this forum can ban anyone they wish for whatever reason, there is no freedom of speech protection in a forum run by a private company. The owners of this forum and anyone they choose to moderate this forum has full control over the content in the forum and who they wish to allow to post here, end of story and get over it.

If you don't like it go wade through the troll-haven that is RGP.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like it go wade through the troll-haven that is RGP.


[/ QUOTE ]
yuck /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[partygirluk]

Your post is ill thought out and unhelpful. At no point in my thread did I state that the moderators were acting unlawfully.

To coin an analogy, a Republican says, "I don't like GWB's Medicare plan" and you say "He's the President, he can do what he wants. If you don't like it, go join the Democrats".

[jason_t]

He made a lot of troll posts, in addition to the racist post about blacks. You're right, he shouldn't be banned (I didn't mean for my initial post to seem as if I was advocating that), but I'd prefer he be banned than sthief09.

[Stork]

[ QUOTE ]
Your post is ill thought out and unhelpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

His post was dead on. You have a right to complain, but you're being a bit obnoxious about it. These are the same people who created the forums, who made this haven for the bored and eager to learn. So they made some bad decisions. It's fine to argue, but don't be a douche about it and go off on a huge rant insulting them.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
Your post is ill thought out and unhelpful. At no point in my thread did I state that the moderators were acting unlawfully.

To coin an analogy, a Republican says, "I don't like GWB's Medicare plan" and you say "He's the President, he can do what he wants. If you don't like it, go join the Democrats".

[/ QUOTE ]

Well your "analogy" sucks b/c it's not really an analogy, you're comparing apples to oranges...think about it, you'll figure it out.

I never said you accused the mods of doing anything other than, in your opinion, banning someone or not banning someone and you didn't agree with it. My post was actually very well thought out and I don't care if it's helpful or not. As I said, your opinion on the matter is irrelevant, get over it and move on. Try RGP if you want an un-moderated forum and see how much you like it.

Other than that, have a nice day and find better things to worry about than trying to defend or stand-up for people who make racist statements under the guise that they a right to do so, when it doesn't really matter if you think they do or not b/c you don't run or own this forum or website.

[SCfuji]

hey party girl. i think the best course of action would be to email the moderators asking for a reason. im sure they will give you one if you ask in an appropriate manner.

later,
fuji

[Michael Davis]

Just because you think naughty words are a joke doesn't mean I do. I frequently read this forum with my young children beside me.

-Michael

[partygirluk]

I did not say I wanted an unmoderated forum. Some moderation is good. But banning someone because they cheated the profanity filter is, IMO, a very low priority. Think about the number of ways you can spell the s*** word. You can use $ for S, 1 for I, put an e on the end, mess the ordering around a bit, put full stops in etcetera.

Hundreds (thousands?) of users find a way to avoid the profanity filter. The text on the forum is small enough so that a child sitting the other side of the room can not see the offending word. This is a gambling forum, and gambling is an adult activity. Profanities would be clamped down on in an ideal world. Hopefully in a consistent manner. But what irks me is that there are many more important things for the moderators to be doing.

[SWF Seeking Wins]

"I frequently read this forum with my young children beside me."

So what?

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
He made a lot of troll posts, in addition to the racist post about blacks. You're right, he shouldn't be banned (I didn't mean for my initial post to seem as if I was advocating that), but I'd prefer he be banned than sthief09.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nongice should be gone.

If Freakin was banned for a Bin Laden AVATAR, nogice should not be allowed to stay.

If they keep banning good posters while letting trolls like nogice continue to post their crap, these forums will be getting a lot less 'angry'.

[AviD]

Seriously, the nerve of moderators controlling their forum the way they want to...wtf are they thinking eh?

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, the nerve of moderators controlling their forum the way they want to...wtf are they thinking eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are seriously missing the OP's point.

The point is trolls seem to get a pass, while solid posters get the boot.
We would just prefer the mod's decisions made a little bit more sense.

Just because we don't own the boards doesn't mean it's wrong of us to ask questions or voice complaints.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, the nerve of moderators controlling their forum the way they want to...wtf are they thinking eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are seriously missing the OP's point.

The point is trolls seem to get a pass, while solid posters get the boot.
We would just prefer the mod's decisions made a little bit more sense.

Just because we don't own the boards doesn't mean it's wrong of us to ask questions or voice complaints.

[/ QUOTE ]

Email the moderators. Complaining to us achieves nothing, we can't do anything about it, and in fact it may cause you to get banned (depending on the moderators viewpoint). Granted you are entitled to your opinion, but no one here can speak accurately regarding how your opinion aligns with the moderator's decision making process. Your only avenue of information is reading the forum rules but again, ultimately the discretion of enforcement is left to the moderators.

Ultimately, having been on more forums than I can count over the years, your best bet is to contact them directly, not bitch about them publicly. This makes sense, quite common.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimately, having been on more forums than I can count over the years, your best bet is to contact them directly, not bitch about them publicly. This makes sense, quite common.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough.

Good post. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Ray Zee]

people slip up once in awhile but those that use profane language all the time and post offensive stuff should be banned for good. they can go to rpg and do what they want. we have a commercial website here. its not to be ruined by a few that arent about poker.
most of those that get banned get back in shortly anyway.
we have the highest quality poker site and want to keep it that way. no one is power crazy. and the way to encourage good posts is to stop the crap. there is tremendous leeway for adventurous posts.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, the nerve of moderators controlling their forum the way they want to...wtf are they thinking eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are seriously missing the OP's point.

The point is trolls seem to get a pass, while solid posters get the boot.
We would just prefer the mod's decisions made a little bit more sense.

Just because we don't own the boards doesn't mean it's wrong of us to ask questions or voice complaints.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I have no problem with this whatsoever and can understand your concerns, but look at the way you phrased the issue as compared to the original poster. The original poster was basically bashing the mods for regulating THEIR forum. You, on the other hand, are clearly indicating an issue that is at hand and your concerns regarding the issue without attacking someone for running what they own the way they wish.

You do see the difference and why issue was taken with the original post, correct?

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
You do see the difference and why issue was taken with the original post, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading it again, I can see what you are saying.

I guess that I just took it for what it meant to me, rather than noticing how others might view it.

[Michael Davis]

Well, I am trying to teach my children to play poker in a wholesome, appropriate environment. Gratuitous vulgarity hinders their education.

-Michael

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]



The point is trolls seem to get a pass, while solid posters get the boot.
We would just prefer the mod's decisions made a little bit more sense.

Just because we don't own the boards doesn't mean it's wrong of us to ask questions or voice complaints.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't understand what is happening at all. Don't confuse a one day banning with being banned. A message is being sent when a long term well known poster gets banned for a day. That is not a real banning, it is effective and creative moderation.

The moderators decisions make sense once you understand that a brief banning is not being banned. Wake up man!

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
That is not a real banning, it is effective and creative moderation.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you say so.
But I still disagree with you.

[ QUOTE ]
The moderators decisions make sense once you understand that a brief banning is not being banned. Wake up man!

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really, because everyone is starting to realize the ban doesn't mean anything. It's lost it's edge. None of the regular posters are going to be seriously worried about losing their accounts anymore.

And it may even start to encourage trolls to post whatever, because they see how easily people get their accounts back.

[MarkL444]

get rid of OOT.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
get rid of OOT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want this?

You post there.

How would we discuss Halo and such?

[MarkL444]

i know i post there. i also spend way too much time reading there when i should be reading the real forums. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[tdarko]

you have to admit the OOT has some interesting threads plus a good change of pace from the more useful topics.

[tolbiny]

And Ray Zee continues his streak of always being right.

[partygirluk]

Lets take an example. Freakin' got banned for having a Bin Laden avatar. Some people have George Bush, pro Israel or Winston Churchill avatars. Out of the 4, who has killed the fewest innocent civilians? Surely OBL. So users with the aforementioned avatars should be banned too. Some people might find an OBL avatar offensive because he is responsible for mass deaths of innoncents. So are the others. Who had just cause is a matter of politics - but 2+2 should be an apolitical organisation.

I would be more willing to accept this censorship if they actually clamped down on the numerous thinly conceiled Spam, abusive users, repeat posts on the same topic (I am sometimes guilty of the final offence). They just seem to have their priorities wrong.

I think the problem boils down to this: The moderators are busy people. Matt Sklansky is a professional player, author and teacher. Mason is all of the above, plus he runs a successful and growing business. They do not have the time to address all the real concerns. But many (most) other forums are moderated by respected members. I am sure that many posters would volunteer their services, and do a damn fine job as a moderator.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi girl:

let me explain a few things. Even though I do have moderation powers, I don't do any of it. Yes I'm lazy but that's not the reason. When I was involved with the moderation, I was constantly accused of censoring posters who disagreed with my views and with attempting to squash any competition from other publishers or non-Two Plus Two authors. So we made a decision to make the moderation as independent as possible.

What this means is that Mat became the sold moderator. We gave him some guidelines and he makes all decisions independent of us.

But there's now a new problem. At one point earlier today, we had 7,800 posts in the previous 24 hours, There's no way anyone can read all that. So what Mat does is rely on our posters to click the notify moderator icon on the bottom of each post. Then he looks at any posts in question.

Also, I think you have Mat and David Sklansky confused. David is the professional player, author, and teacher. Mat is the general manager of Two Plus Two Publishing LLC and pretty much runs the company on a day-to-day basis.

I also have some problems with your comments on OBL. By your reasoning, Abraham Lincoln is responsible for mass killing of innocent civilians since the Union Army burnt large areas of the South in order to break their spirit. And somehow I think I would prefer to live under the rule of Winston Churchill than OBL. In fact, I think I would prefer to live under the rule of King George III (even though our founding fathers didn't).

Best wishes,
Mason

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
I also have some problems with your comments on OBL. By your reasoning, Abraham Lincoln is responsible for mass killing of innocent civilians since the Union Army burnt large areas of the South in order to break their spirit. And somehow I think I would prefer to live under the rule of Winston Churchill than OBL. In fact, I think I would prefer to live under the rule of King George III (even though our founding fathers didn't).


[/ QUOTE ]

So would I. But that was not my point.

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, I think you have Mat and David Sklansky confused. David is the professional player, author, and teacher. Mat is the general manager of Two Plus Two Publishing LLC and pretty much runs the company on a day-to-day basis.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, my bad. But as your company is doing so well, hopefully he has a very busy job, and his time is at a premium. In any case, given that 2+2 has >20,000 members, I am sure you could find many who are willing and able to moderate the forums - and who will have the time to apply 2+2's posting criteria more consistently. They could also deal with a lot of the dross, that while not bannable, is -EV for the forum.

For example, many posts are created on the same topic. e.g in the STT forum, there are about 5 questions every day on bankroll strategy. Users will not notify the moderator of these posts. But they clog up the forum and annoy some of the best posters. Giving some of the STT regulars (such as Lorinda) the ability to merge these posts, would make Matt's life easier, and greatly improve your forums.

[Broken Glass Can]

Mason said:
[ QUOTE ]
What this means is that Mat became the solo moderator. We gave him some guidelines and he makes all decisions independent of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a good decision when talking about racist posts, personal attacks, and offensive material. But there is one area where 24 hour moderation would be useful and uncontroversial:

Every morning someone signs up under a new name and spams links to product sales (usually non-poker). Taking advantage of the absent moderator, these posts remain up for a few hours, and the person will just sign up under a new name when his ID is banned.

Couldn't we at least agree that clear spam (affiliate and the non-poker junk mentioned above) could be deleted by someone other than Mat when he is not online?

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]


Not really, because everyone is starting to realize the ban doesn't mean anything. It's lost it's edge. None of the regular posters are going to be seriously worried about losing their accounts anymore.

And it may even start to encourage trolls to post whatever, because they see how easily people get their accounts back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people do not even want the bother of having to PM Mat to get their accont restored, and many don't realize that their behavior has crossed the line (we are talking mostly college kids here /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

Don't assume Mat will restore everyone. Real trolls won't be restored when banned, and even a regular poster who does not desist after several warnings (ie Vehn) will not be restored.

Don't be fooled, One day bannings has not lost its value as an effective technique yet.

[partygirluk]

The last two forums I have visited are OOT and SSPl&NL. OOT is being spammed by Kitty22 advertising something or other. SSP1 is polluted by Theredpill5 - his 4th incarnation. Anyone who has read his posts knows that he should be banned from the forum, but for some reason he is allowed to sign up under a new name and stay.

[daveymck]

Trouble is even if people are banned they can easily create a new account eg Red Pill eg Ryan 42 in his many incarnations.

Once we start self moderation I think things may possibly get more draconian with more posts deleted more arguments over why this thread was locked /deleted. Its akin to the lunatics taking over the Asylum however good the lunatic is they are not in a position to make business decision about this site, and at some point there will be some event or thread that ends up causing a problem one way or another.

I know all the pro moderator people mean well and want whats best for the future of the forum and dont want unfair bannings etc. However at the end of the day this is two plus twos website they can allow or disallow anything they want this is not real life free speech is not a right here, if they want to ban OBL, Pro Bush or whatever posts then they can it might be unfair but its their website they can ban everyone with a name beginning with an A if they want.

Some forum in the UK have been shut down or taken to court for libellous postings made by the users this is not chatting to your mates in the pub its a recorded medium that is admissable potentially in court.

I think its a big shame if Stheif has been banned as with some of the others in the past that have been too, I think a warning would have surficed (if he has been banned is there a thread) the guy posting racist stuff in OOT imho shold be banned but I guess thats up to the site to deceide from their business perspective.

[daveymck]

BTW Stheif is free it was a warning banning found the thread in OOT.

[B Dids]

Like Mason points out- the volume of posts is such that nobody is going to be able to moderate the whole board.

Where this gets very silly is that obvious troll accounts "pubez are 4 noobs" and some of the geniuses in the WPT forum are not banned, whereas worthwhile posters like 1800Gambler and sfthief have been.

I would hope that the moderators would have enough of a feel for the context of the board to understand who Josh or Jay are, or why Freakin had the avatar he did.

Also, I think the current "ban as a warning" technique may be effective, but to my eye it's passive/agressive, and less effective than a more frequent and involve presence from the mods.

I know this suggestion has been made before, so I doubt it's going anywhere, but I'm sure there are users here who would be willing and able context mods for the forums. There's people who want to help make this a better place, and I think it's to 2+2's benefit to take advantage of that.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think the current "ban as a warning" technique may be effective, but to my eye it's passive/agressive, and less effective than a more frequent and involve presence from the mods.

[/ QUOTE ]


Were they given PM warnings by Mat (or anyone)?
Was Freakin even asked to just remove his Bin Laden avatar? (apparently not since he wasn't even positive why he was banned).

I know Mat (and anyone else) doesn't have all the time in the world to give specific warnings....but, honestly...how hard is it to just send a PM to Freakin that says,

"You need to change your avatar or you will be banned. Thank you. - Mat"

I'm not familiar with the sthief situation but I guess it had to do with getting the swear-words in around the censor (???).

So...a PM or even a sticky-post that says "no more swear-words okay? The censor function is there for a reason. If you continue to use inappropriate language you will be banned. Thank you. - Mat"


for all the Alizee avatars that were removed....couldn't he have just saved himself some time by posting instead?
"hey guys...all those video-avatars really clog-up the forums for some people. We need to have all Alizee avatars removed please. Thank you - Mat"


Maybe I am underestimating the ability of the 2+2 community to cooperate with such requests.
Maybe sthief and freakin both received warning after warning after warning and just kept breaking the rules. I really don't know.

I've never received a warning or anything like that from Mat or anyone else. Maybe I came close to the line a couple of times without even knowing it.


In short, I think this silent-method of 'your account is banned and we're not going to tell you why' is probably not the most effective way to get things done.

However, as I said in the Zoo...I really don't think the spam posts for 'get 20% rake-back here' or 'get a new sony vaio' or really that bad in these forums.
But I do wonder about some of the bannings sometimes when it seems to me rather likely that a PM or sticky-post warning would have sufficed.

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of the 4, who has killed the fewest innocent civilians? Surely OBL.

[/ QUOTE ]
who the hell are you to make this claim?? stick to topics you have first hand experience with.

[PsYcHo-ScHnAuZeR]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of the 4, who has killed the fewest innocent civilians? Surely OBL.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are one warped individual.

By deliberately starting a conflict, OBL is responsible for all the innocent civilians killed in all the countries involved.

If I jump in front of a car and then jump back, and the driver swerves and hits a tree, am I guiltless? I never touched the car, and the driver was the one who turned the steering wheel.

I hope you are just an ignorant fool about OBL, because if you are not, that makes you something much worse.

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Out of the 4, who has killed the fewest innocent civilians? Surely OBL.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are one warped individual.

By deliberately starting a conflict, OBL is responsible for all the innocent civilians killed in all the countries involved.

If I jump in front of a car and then jump back, and the driver swerves and hits a tree, am I guiltless? I never touched the car, and the driver was the one who turned the steering wheel.

I hope you are just an ignorant fool about OBL, because if you are not, that makes you something much worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Compare the number of innocents killed in Al Qaeda attacks with the number of innocents killed by U.S forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and the number of innocents killed by Allied bombing in WWII, and you will see that the Al Qaeda number is clearly the lowest.

[AngryCola]

You weren't helping your case when you tried to make this point earlier, and you're definitely not helping by trying to defend that point of view now. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
You weren't helping your case when you tried to make this point earlier, and you're definitely not helping by trying to defend that point of view now. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not a point of view.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
It is not a point of view.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not the point.

Btw, my post wasn't intended to be completely negative.
I was just offering a small piece of advice.

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is not a point of view.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not the point.

Btw, my post wasn't intended to be completely negative.
I was just offering a small piece of advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, but what I am saying is true, and I don't care if some people on the internet can't realise this and get annoyed with me.

[Il_Mostro]

[ QUOTE ]
who the hell are you to make this claim?? stick to topics you have first hand experience with.

[/ QUOTE ]
That would render all debates impossible.

Now, this specific debate probably belong in the OTP forum, but partygirl has a point.

[jokerthief]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets take an example. Freakin' got banned for having a Bin Laden avatar. Some people have George Bush, pro Israel or Winston Churchill avatars. Out of the 4, who has killed the fewest innocent civilians? Surely OBL.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is stupid. Hitler was resposible for innocent civilians being killed by allied bombings, not Churchill. The UK had two choices Die or Kill. Same with the USA now. The innocent civilians killed or maimed in Afganistan can blame Osama Bin Laden for thier misfortune. If it were not for his actions, they would be alive. If you and a friend are walking in the jungle and your friend throws a rock at a baby elephant in a herd of adults, causing them to charge and bore you, would you blame the elephants?

It's comments like this from europeans that is driving Americans more and more toward unilateralist attitudes.