Another One... anyone else call this flop bet? (and BONUS HAND) [Archive]

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kurto

02-16-2005, 02:08 PM

NOTE ABOUT READS- I think the table was all idiots. Honestly. I hope I'm not being too harsh. Maybe 1 round after the hand in question happened, was this hand. I didn't bother to hide the final results to this hand because my point is to show the kind of hands that justify them calling a raise.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($59.80)
UTG+1 ($19.95)
MP1 ($11.15)
MP2 ($23.75)
MP3 ($9.90)
CO ($41.30)
Button ($19.25)
Hero ($18.50)
BB ($24.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.75, UTG calls $0.75, MP1 raises to $2, MP3 folds, CO calls $1.75, Hero raises to $8.25, BB folds, UTG calls $7.25, MP1 calls $6.25, CO calls $6.25.

Flop: ($34.25) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero bets $10.25 (All-In), UTG calls $10.25, MP1 calls $2.90 (All-In), CO folds.

Turn: ($57.65) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($57.65) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $57.65

Results below:
Hero has Qd Qs (one pair, queens).
UTG has Ts 9c (one pair, tens).
MP1 has Tc As (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $57.65.

*** So... knowing the kind of table it is... do you call the flop bet below? (I did because I had everyone covered and it was already a decent pot and if another diamond didn't come, I thought I might still have the best hand... and if one did come and I didn't think the SB had a diamond, I might be able to build a sidepot with him)

Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($34.55)
BB ($21.70)
UTG ($6.10)
UTG+1 ($24.10)
MP1 ($4.75)
MP2 ($45.15)
CO ($18.05)
Hero ($19.30)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.5, SB calls $1.40, BB calls $1.25, UTG calls $1.25, MP1 calls $1.25, MP2 calls $1.25.

Flop: ($9) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $4.6 (All-In), MP1 calls $3.25 (All-In), MP2 folds, Hero calls $4.60, SB calls $4.60, BB folds.

Turn: ($26.05) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players, 2 all-in)
SB bets $2.5, Hero folds.

River: ($28.55) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $28.55

Results in white below: 
SB has Ad 7h (flush, ace high).
UTG has Qs Tc (one pair, queens).
MP1 has Kd 8d (flush, king high).
Outcome: SB wins $28.55.

tbach24

02-16-2005, 02:12 PM

Not positive, but I think I probably go all in. That or I wait for the turn like you did.

Tilt

02-16-2005, 03:08 PM

No I don't call that flop bet. Its raise or fold IMO. I'd probably raise - given that the table is full of complete idiots i would assume I am ahead.

kenberman

02-16-2005, 03:32 PM

getting 3.6-1 on your money, I call and wait for the turn card. assuming nobody has better than 1 pair, and a 4th diamond will cripple you, you have odds to call. but it's close, given my "nobody has better than 1 pair" assumption. if this is false, you're in deep trouble.

booger

02-16-2005, 03:47 PM

first hand you have four limpers and only raise to $1 with QQ and in the second you have 3 limpers and raise to $1.5 with KK. You want to isolate so raise more imo especially hand 1. anyone else?? $2 might be right....

PoBoy321

02-16-2005, 03:50 PM

hand 1 looks good, hand #2 is a little bit tougher, but I definitely like the "push non-diamond, non-A turn" line. If you had the rest of the players in the hand covered, I might push here, but since you're up against some equally sized stacks, I wait for the turn to make a move like that.

TheDrone

02-16-2005, 03:58 PM

Given the preflop action on the first hand, I would have raised much more preflop on the second hand because some are still going to call with hands much worse than yours. I'd make it $4 or $5, enough to get hopefully one or two callers. A 3-way flop that's a little scary is much easier to play than a 6-way flop.

The way you played it preflop, I would still push the flop so that the two players behind you do not have odds to chase a flush draw.

jhall23

02-16-2005, 04:14 PM

I'm gonna argue against pushing the flop as others have suggested. I'd feel a lot more comfortable pushing on the flop with the Kd. I don't think I like it without. Bad players think SUITED!! is good and could play any suited to a raise. And they love to slowplay when they make a good hand. With all those people in the pot someone could easily have a flush and I doubt you are getting a fold from any of them if they have it, even if it's low. With the 2 people left that have you covered it makes me like a push less.

kurto

02-16-2005, 04:17 PM

"I would still push the flop so that the two players behind you do not have odds to chase a flush draw." The problem with these tables is that pot odds are meaningless to everyone else. If I pushed and they didn't have pot odds, they'd call anyways. These are people who call raises with 9-10os and who reraise with A10 os... They go all in when they hit top pair regardless of the pre flop action... these people aren't concerned about if they have pot odds to make a call.

Because of this, I don't think going all in makes sense since I'll likely get their money if the draw doesn't hit if I bet and can bow out gracefully if the draw (in this case another diamond) does hit.

Last night was odd. Normally, a 3-5bb raise is enough to narrow the field. Last night there was a full moon and on two of the tables I was at, there was no folding. I will definitely adjust my preflop bet accordingly.

Monday night... everyone folds when you raise to $1.
Tuesday night... you raise and the whole table calls.