newbie questions

[curtains]

Sorry I don't know what the general consensus is. Whats a good ROI at the $215's and how many is a reasonable sample size. Just recently decided to 4 table them.
I searched and couldnt find it. I know there used to be some thing up at the top, but its gone.

[The Yugoslavian]

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Sorry I don't know what the general consensus is.


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Of course not, you're a total noob.

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Whats a good ROI at the $215's


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I've got a 45% ROI. It's an easy game if you play it the right way.

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and how many is a reasonable sample size.


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At least 6. 10 preferably. I've played 8 personally and am pretty sure my ROI is between 40-50.

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Just recently decided to 4 table them.


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Ummm, the correct answer here is 8 tabling. I mean, I'm sure you're destroying them now that Dali is putzing around in the 109s.

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I searched and couldnt find it.


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It's cool, I have nothing better to do than answer noob post after noob post about the exact same questions.

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I know there used to be some thing up at the top, but its gone.

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Don't worry, we're here to hold your hand and sing songs to you. We're the QLC of 2+2, /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

BTW, you should try playing chess, it's way easier than poker and I have a feeling you'd be marginally ok at it.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

No seriously I cant find the s+g faq thing!!! do you have link to it? Maybe they have all the secrets.

[The Yugoslavian]

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No seriously I cant find the s+g faq thing!!! do you have link to it? Maybe they have all the secrets.

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Just raise allin -- it's what Strassa would do.

The SNG sticky was great while it was there but punk noobs like you never referred to it anyway /images/graemlins/mad.gif.

Yugoslav

[SuitedSixes]

I wonder if once you start 4-tabling and beyond, you really shouldn't be more concerned with $/hr than ROI. Sure the two are tied together, but if you were most interested in maximizing your ROI you wouldn't be 4-tabling.

[SuitedSixes]

Here you go - FAQ (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=844952&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#844952)

[curtains]

Oh ok, thanks. Doesnt really cover $215's as obviously 30% is unsustainable at that level.

[The Yugoslavian]

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Oh ok, thanks. Doesnt really cover $215's as obviously 30% is unsustainable at that level.

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20% ROI is considered elite
15% is considered very very very good.
10% is considered very good and sustained by at least several 2+2 posters.
Anything over 0% is also good. Too close to 0% and your swings would be huge I'd imagine.

My 45% ROI from my 0 sample size probably isn't sustainable, however,

What do you want your sample size to determine? You need hundreds upon hundreds for a close to true ROI. Your ITM would be fairly accurate after only a few hundred.

PokerScott I believe it was had a great post with some neat tables that showed what kind of short term ROI a long term ROI winner could expect.

Scott's Tables (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=1570111 &Forum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&M ain=1570111&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=25294&d aterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=m&olderval=&oldert ype=&bodyprev=#Post1570111)

Yugoslav

[curtains]

I'll be satisfied enough if Im 10% or above after 500-1000 tourneys. I cant decide whether 500 or 1000 is enough.....

[The Yugoslavian]

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I'll be satisfied enough if Im 10% or above after 500-1000 tourneys. I cant decide whether 500 or 1000 is enough.....

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Enough for what? Moving up to the 1k STEPS? Proving your worth in SNGs and moving to some other form of poker? Or do you simply want a goal to shoot for?

10% after 500-1000 is *very* solid but still isn't enough to really know your true ROI unfortunately. I'm too tired to look at what kind of confidence bounds it'd most likely give you but you can play around with AleoMagus' conficence deal thingy:

Confidence Calculator (http://www.aleomagus.freeservers.com/Spreadsheet/)

I'd imagine you'd know almost for sure that you're a winning player statistically (but not quite). However, you're true ROI could be significantly lower or higher.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

I just want to know that I can make 80-100 4 tabling (before I start moving to 5-8 tables). Then someday 1k sit and gos, and then in future Ill play the 5k sit and gos which will be implemented in maybe 2 years.
Im obsessed with answering posts here btw, looking 3 pages deep to find them.

[Slim Pickens]

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PokerScott I believe it was had a great post with some neat tables that showed what kind of short term ROI a long term ROI winner could expect.

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I must have been channelling PokerScott (thread) (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1562473&page=1&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1&vc=1) today. I got bored and wrote a script to simulate results over N trials of x SNG's each given a 1/2/3/OOTM finish distribution as an input. Result: variance is a cruel mistress. Long story short, your short-term results depend on your finish distribution much more than they do on just the overall ROI. You all probably knew this but newbies get to answer posts with the subject "newbie questions." /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Slim

[raptor517]

500 is definitely not enough. in all seriousness, my roi dropped 8% after 450, then back up 10% at 520. therefore, i think you reallly need 2k to know where you are truly at. that should nullify most of the swings, at least within 5% roi or so. good luck with those sngs though, they are tough, and swingy. the 109s are great still though.

[raptor517]

you can get in around 10-12 tables per hour 8 tabling (this is the lower end, its usually higher). if you can have a 10% roi in the 215s doing this, you will be making 250+ an hour. i wish you luck.

[curtains]

Well so far so good for me in the 200s.....but only 180 events.
I have played many more than 180 in my lifetime, but since I started keeping track with PT a week ago, its 180. I used to just play one or two from time to time, but now Im forcing myself to play 16 per day.
I've been laziest poker player in the world for the past year, routintely just taking weeks off at a time. It was a huge disgrace.

[raptor517]

hmm i think my record for sngs played in a day was.. 136. i try to get in around 400-500 a week, unless im being lazy, which i try not to do because i have no life other than sitting here playing sngs.

[curtains]

haha yea I could play more, but trust me, 16 is a big step for me. If I can make at least $20 per, thats a lot of $$ (I sportsbet also), and I'll also be playing multis on top of that.

[raptor517]

im curious as to how old you are and what you do for a living?

[curtains]

I'm 26 and play poker for a living /images/graemlins/smile.gif I made some money in the past from poker and I guess it hurt my ambition a little bit.
Throughout last year I have gone through phases where I play all the time or don't play much at all. Recently I didnt play for about a whole month. I have always kept a running tab of my bankroll and taken out expenses here and there but not meticulously.
I decided to count how much money I actually had (for the first time in a year) compared to what my bankroll said, and I found out I had about 15k - 20k less than my "bankroll".
Anyway if I can have an ROI of 10% at the 215s (Which I think is very possible), then It's absurd not to play a lot of them. It's not like people are coming over to my house and giving me huge lumps of money to play video games and watch TV.

[curtains]

btw to prove how bad I am, I've already played my required 16 sit and gos for today, and have been since messing around posting on here for 2 hours instead of running them while posting.

[raptor517]

well, generally, after making 2k in a day, i just quit for the day and enjoy it, normally eating oreos and posting on 2+2, or getting a new dvd and popping that in. i dont really feel a need to play any more after a good run. im comfortable with what i have and take the rest of the day off. oh, and i think that 10% at the 215s may be harder than you think.

[curtains]

My career results at the 215s have been VERY good before I started playing them seriously and keeping track with Pokertracker.
Right now they arent quite how they were before this, but they are still above 10% for now. I figure that this, combined with me being world champion, means I should be able to do it. If not, 6-9% ROI isnt the end of my life.

[raptor517]

i would be happier having a 20% roi at the 109s than a 10% at the 215s just because the swings would be much more manageable for my psyche, which is probably +ev for me. however, im probably going to start playing the 215s on friday and saturdays at peak times, as i think they can easily be beaten for that 10% roi.

[curtains]

Yeah but having 20% ROI at the 100s would make me feel like less of a champion. How can I sit there playing 100s, when I could play the 200s instead. Who will listen to me if Im playing 100s all the time instead of 200s????? Also I like to think that I can improve my game constantly and acheive a 15-20% ROI. My bankroll can handle any reasonable $215 sit and go swings, assuming I have a 6-10% ROI.
Also I need to prepare for eventually moving up to 500s and 1k's at some point in my life, harder to do that mentally if I'm not playing at the 200s.
btw Im delerious right now, its 5 am.

[raptor517]

only 4am in texas, i usually stay up till about 8. anyway, 10k downswings in 215s happen. and they SUCK. less than 10% roi means super swingy. and super swingy means bad for the psyche. bad for the psyche means -ev. ugh, ima go watch one of those dvds i was talking about.

[curtains]

Well yeah, I guess Ill have more of an idea of my ROI in a month or two. If after 1000-1500 Im below 7% ROI, or if I ever go under 0% ROI before then, maybe I'd consider playing 100s and seeing how they go.

[DonButtons]

Have fun, I averaged 20-35 sngs a night during winter. I def. think your 10% goal is possible, and along with a nice rake back deal, its good money. Just don't let the swings affect your play, and it's good to have at least 100x-150x buyins as your bankroll, that way you don't notice the bad swings that much.

[ChrisV]

My ROI is around 13% at the 200's - estimated, as I only have 700 or so on record (the figure for those is 10.5%, but my earn rate has slowed up). I'm considering dropping back to the 100's during the week, because the time I play (evening in Australia) is graveyard shift in the States and the games tend to be pretty bad. Although my sample size is small (about 100 sng's for each day) my ROI is dismal (4%ish) for the weekdays and huge for saturday nights (US time) - 24%!

Anything over 10% is a great return. Don't forget that represents $100/hr or more 4 tabling.

20% I think is possible but requires extreme talent. Gigabet is one of the best on the $200's and his ROI is 18%.

[bgarf]

A true newbie question here:
I've changed the screen resolution on my computer and still barely fit 2 tables on the screen. How are you guys 4-tabling? Don't tell me you can be successful with the screens popping up over one another...I tried this and it definitely doesn't portend to optimal play. Thanks for responding!


"There is no nobility in being superior to others; true nobility is in being superior to your previous self." -Hindu proverb

[curtains]

I have two giant monitors. I really only need the one monitor, but if you want to surf the web while playing, without overlap...then you need the second. Also if you want to play more than 4 games without overlap youll need the 2nd monitor.