A river decision.

[jason_t]

Just posted. No reads. Bet/fold?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero....

[adamstewart]

Bet.

If you're behind, you already were on the turn (and MP didn't raise there either).


Adam

[ErrantNight]

open fold the river. it keeps me warm at night.

no, seriously, wtf are you doing betting the turn if you think you're behind on the river? it changed nothing.

i'd be amazingly unsurprised to see an A OR a 9 here... but i'd be inclined to check behind on the turn and call a river bet or simply bet this river again depending on my read of Le Opponent

[jason_t]

And if he check raises?

[MoodyA]

correct me if I'm wrong but why is folding an option just turn over your cards

[StacysMom]

i agree with betting here after a turn bet, but would have probably checkd threw the turn and caleed or bet the river. this allows the induce a bluff and/or value betting

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
i agree with betting here after a turn bet, but would have probably checkd threw the turn and caleed or bet the river. this allows the induce a bluff and/or value betting

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion this post sucks. Which is too bad because I like Fountains of Wayne.

(And it's not just the "threw," "checkd," or "caleed" part.)

This is extraordinarily weak thinking. Check the turn? Seriously? This turn is the easiest value bet on the planet called Earth. How often are you ahead here? I'll tell you. A f[/i]ucking lot. That's how often.

Only an A or a 9 beats you. And you have 4 outs to fill up even if you are beaten. People will call with a lot lot lot lot of other hands besides a straight. A pair. Another pair. A pair. Some crappy pair. Maybe middle pair. Sometimes two pair that are worse than top 2 pair. Oh, and I forgot -- a pocket pair.

If you get check-raised, call the raise and fill up on the river. If you forget to fill up on the river, decide based on a read if the opponent has a straight or not. If you think he does more often than pot odds justify, fold. If you think he doesn't, call.

But for the love of all that is Holy, do NOT check this turn.

Once he doesn't check-raise the turn, then the river becomes the exact same value bet. Sure, he might just call you with a 9 because he doesn't have an A. He has the sucker end of the straight and thinks you have an A because you raised PF.

But the times he has a 9 (and sorry if this was one of them) or an A are far outweighed by the times he has one pair or a worse 2 pair. You need to make money off of these value bets to offset the times you are sucked out on. If you don't make these value bets, you become a losing player because the pots you win are a couple bets short of what they should be, and the pots you lose are the same size.

[EliteNinja]

Bet for value, call a raise.

[jason_t]

I've learned in the past few days, from Evan et al. that checking behind here would have been weak. I have to bet the turn.

[jason_t]

A few people are focusing on the turn in this hand; that is not where I had trouble. I'll bet it for value and call a raise every time. It's the river where I froze up. I didn't know what to do if raised on the river; I've faced a lot of river checkraises lately from hands that should have raised me on the turn (flushes, straights, etc.) and that influenced my thinking on the river. It's clear after private joker's post (and adamstewart expressed the same ideas more laconically) that this is a clear value bet and I should call a raise.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes two pair that are worse than top 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

He had KJ and my MHIG.

Thanks for the insightful post.

[Brainwalter]

[ QUOTE ]
I've learned in the past few days, from Evan et al. that checking behind here would have been weak. I have to bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking behind on the river would be equally weak.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Checking behind on the river would be equally weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no longer any doubt in my mind that this is perfectly correct.