question for El Diablo et al

[Che]

The idea for this post was sparked by an El Diablo post in a ridiculous MTT thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1740512&page=0&view=e xpanded&sb=5&o=14&vc=1).

[ QUOTE ]
Any player with the skills to be a profitable tourney player worth staking in the bigger online tourneys can make $100/hr multi-tabling low-limit NL games with minimal bankroll requirements.

[/ QUOTE ]

El Diablo-

What do you mean by “multi-tabling low-limit NL games” – 4 $1/$2 $200 max buyin tables? 2 $2/$4 $400 max buyin tables? 2 $5/$10 tables buying in short (a la Matt Flynn)? Something completely different?

Motivation for asking:

1. I started playing ring games late last summer after starting out as a tourney-only player. I made good money at each level and moved up very quickly (and therefore don’t have enough hands at any given level to *know* with confidence that I am actually good as opposed to running good). Note: Started at $1/$2, now at $5/$10.

2. I recently hit my biggest cold streak by far (down $10K in three weeks).

3. I am now wondering if I am a good player and would like to put myself to a test.

4. I figure making $100/hour is a reasonable goal for now so I’m wondering at what level I should be able to do that if I am indeed good.

5. Having identified the appropriate level, I will play at that level long enough (50,000 hands? 100,000 hands?) to know within a reasonable confidence interval whether or not I play goot.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may have,
Che

BTW: Feel free to respond even if your name is not Diablo...

[BobboFitos]

Che,

This probably belongs in MSNL, as I have a feeling El Diablo doesn't (waste?) his time reading these posts. But...

[ QUOTE ]
Any player with the skills to be a profitable tourney player worth staking in the bigger online tourneys can make $100/hr multi-tabling low-limit NL games with minimal bankroll requirements.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think this is true. Tournament skills and cash game skills are independant of one another.

To edit this - if you look at a bunch of TLB leaders, (referencing PStars) alot of them (when I've played wiht them, atleast, so this could be very jaded) are not successful ring game players. On the flip side, a bunch of upper ring game players struggle in the mid buy in (and lower buyin, too!) tournaments.

[fimbulwinter]

Quick math

5PTBB/100 = $40/100 for party 200NL or prima 400NL or $20/100 for Party 100NL and Prima 200NL

6 max games easily run 50 hands/hr.
4 tabling party 200NL = 200h/hr = $80/hr
4 tabling party 100NL = 200h/hr = $40/hr

this is assuming an OK winrate. Put in 20K+ hands at a level and you'll be earning up to twice the above, possibly more depending on how much game selection restraint you exhibit.

fim

[Sephus]

4 tabling party 6max nl is more like 270-300h/hr.

[Ulysses]

I think fimbul's math is quite conservative and one can make significantly more than that - he even alludes to double being possible for a good player, which I agree with, and his hands/hr are low.

Yes, tourney and ring skills are different. However, the basic NL skills I'd expect from someone who I'd be willing to stake for the bigger ($100-$600) online tourneys would be at a level where I'd expect them to do very well in the Party NL games.

[Ulysses]

Two comments, Che.

$10k downswing in the Stars 5-10 is very possible for a very good player.

I think $100/hr is doable in the Party 100NL but given your goals and experience, I think you're better off spending your time in the Party 200NL. I put in a fair amount of time 3-tabling the Party 200NL and was making $150+/hr. I haven't played them, but I hear the 6-max tables are especially great.

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
I put in a fair amount of time 3-tabling the Party 200NL and was making $150+/hr. I haven't played them, but I hear the 6-max tables are especially great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Posts like this remind me I'm not the badass that I sometimes think I am.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
4 tabling party 6max nl is more like 270-300h/hr.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really high.


But $100/hr is not.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]

1. I started playing ring games late last summer after starting out as a tourney-only player. I made good money at each level and moved up very quickly (and therefore don’t have enough hands at any given level to *know* with confidence that I am actually good as opposed to running good). Note: Started at $1/$2, now at $5/$10.

2. I recently hit my biggest cold streak by far (down $10K in three weeks).

[/ QUOTE ]

While that's bad, it's not catastrophic. Trust me, if you made it up there while stopping at each level, you're good.

Multitabling smaller games will lower your variance.

You should be able to make $100+/hr 4 tabling $2/$4 or $2/$5.

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
That's really high.

[/ QUOTE ]

only if by "really high" you mean "accurate." did you notice that it's hands/hr?

[Caruso329]

Che I'm just wondering how quickly you moved up each level and what was your bankroll going into each level? Did you move up when you had 20 buy-ins for the next level? Did you start with a $2000 bankroll? What is your bankroll now for 5/10?

[Tilt]

So when (if) I get to these levels in the OIC I am going to get feasted on by these guys.

[Yeti]

You could make $100/hr 5 tabling the Party 100NL 6 Max.

If I was you I'd 3 or 4 table 2/4. You should be able to do it pretty handily there, especially on 100BB stacks.

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4 tabling party 6max nl is more like 270-300h/hr.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really high.


[/ QUOTE ]

I average ~75 hands/hour at the NL 6-max tables. So 4 would be ~300 hands.

[LuvDemNutz]

[ QUOTE ]
Two comments, Che.

$10k downswing in the Stars 5-10 is very possible for a very good player.

I think $100/hr is doable in the Party 100NL but given your goals and experience, I think you're better off spending your time in the Party 200NL. I put in a fair amount of time 3-tabling the Party 200NL and was making $150+/hr. I haven't played them, but I hear the 6-max tables are especially great.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been multitabling the Party 100 NL full ring games and have been doing pretty good so far.

Can someone explain to me the pros/cons of sitting at the 6-max tables?

Are the players generally looser?

More hands per hour = higher $$ per hour?

I generally feel more comfortable in the full ring games as they seem to suit my weak-tightish style better.

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
Posts like this remind me I'm not the badass that I sometimes think I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

Reading just about any thread in the Mid/Hi NL/PL forum reminds me I still have a ways to go before reaching "badass" status. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Che]

creedofhubris and Caruso329-

[ QUOTE ]
Trust me, if you made it up there while stopping at each level, you're good.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the encouraging word!

Now that I think more about it, I actually started at $0.50/$1. Moved from there to $1/$2, then $2/$4, then $5/$10. Whenever I moved up, I didn't completely quit the lower level immediately. In fact, I was still playing some $2/$4 when I started my cold streak. I was about to drop $2/$4, but now I have pulled back to $2/$4 only.

So, yes, I stopped at each level.

[ QUOTE ]
Che I'm just wondering how quickly you moved up each level and what was your bankroll going into each level? Did you move up when you had 20 buy-ins for the next level? Did you start with a $2000 bankroll? What is your bankroll now for 5/10?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very quickly - probably fewer than 10,000 hands at each level. I had probably had ~20 buyins at each level (way over $2000 to start), but I don't separate my tourney and ring game bankrolls so I'm really probably shortrolled on at least one side (if not both).

My 5/10 bankroll was over $20K, but it isn't anymore /images/graemlins/frown.gif, which is why I pulled back.

Later,
Che

[Che]

fimbulwinter-

5PTBB/100 means 5 PokerTracker big blinds per 100 hands? Is that right?

$40/100 looks like 10 BB's/100 by my math, but I don't use PT so I'm not familiar with the lingo.

I suppose I should start using it but it doesn't work with FTP (where I usually play) so I haven't bothered so far.

Thanks for taking the time to do these calculations,
Che

[Che]

El Diablo-

[ QUOTE ]
$10k downswing in the Stars 5-10 is very possible for a very good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured that was the case. If I had been playing 5/10 long enough to *know* that I am a good player, I would just keep playing 5/10. However, I don't want to piss away another $10K figuring out that I am actually not a good player, so I want to back off to an appropriate level and actually stay there a while (as I should have done originally).

I don't think I'll start at Party since I'm still a little pissed at them due to a little disagreement over how one of my Step 5 freerolls disappeared /images/graemlins/mad.gif (although I'll probably go back eventually since I have a family to support and there's so much $ there).

For now, I'll try 4-tabling the $1/$2 6-handed tables (when available) at FTP. I haven't 4-tabled before, but it might actually help me since I'll have to play fairly ABC poker to manage that many tables and I won't have time to play too tricky for my own good /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. Actually, I guess I'll start with 3 tables and then move up when I get the hang of it.

I'll get started as soon as I whip that NL OIC thing. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks for the advice!

Che

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I guess I'll start with 3 tables and then move up when I get the hang of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just played a little over an hour 3-tabling the $1/$2 6-handed tables at FTP. I made over $500, but my head is spinning!

The tables overlap so there's always one table popping up while another one beeps at me. Sheesh. I'm not sure how many hours a day I can play that many tables with my current setup.

The tiny overlap of two screens isn't too bad, but I think I'll have to get a bigger monitor if I'm going to continue 3-tabling without going insane. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Later,
Che

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]


I think $100/hr is doable in the Party 100NL but given your goals and experience, I think you're better off spending your time in the Party 200NL. I put in a fair amount of time 3-tabling the Party 200NL and was making $150+/hr. I haven't played them, but I hear the 6-max tables are especially great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dear Mr. Devil,

How hard is the 200NL 6 max vs 100NL 6 max? I've been doing very well at 100NL, and thinking of moving up but I only have 10k hands.

Also how do you multitable shorthanded without poker tracker? How do you make reads on people?

[iceman5]

When you play 3-4 tables, do you even watch the tables when youre not involved in a hand?

I play 2 tables and can get very good reads, but as soon as I go to 3, I cant watch all 3 at the same time. ( I do have a 20" monitor that fits 4 tables with no overlap).

Sometimes I watch 2 of the tables intently, and only look at the 3rd when its my turn. For you guys playing 3 or more tables, do you try to get reads at all or just play the hand like you would against a normal/average player?

In other words, there are some players who I might reraise with AK and others I'll just flat call, but its based on their raising standards amongst other things. When youre playing 3 or more tables, do you play similar against everyone and not worry about who may be raising with KT and who only raises big pairs?

[okayplayer]

I try and keep an eye on all the games, and focus in when a pot gets big or there is some aggressive action in a hand. But PokerTracker and Gametime are my biggest allies /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[TheWorstPlayer]

OKPlayer and the WorstPlayer agree, apparently, that PT and GT make all the difference. Not sure if you want to take advice from players who aren't great, but you can get a very good sense of people's raising standards from the PFR% and you can get a good sense of how they behave post flop from stats like went to showdown %, won money at showdown %, and post flop aggression factor. I don't think it is really possible to play well on multiple tables without these tools.

[Che]

[ QUOTE ]
PokerTracker and Gametime are my biggest allies

[/ QUOTE ]

I know PokerTracker.

What is Gametime?

Thanks,
Che

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]

What is Gametime?


[/ QUOTE ]
I use playerview (http://www.playerview.net/).
From their site: "PlayerViewNET is a complete game-time add-on for Party Poker and Skins. It works with your Poker Tracker database to provide real time information right on your Party Poker window."
...and it's free!

Gametime is a similar tool and available on the PT-site, I guess.

I would say, when multitabling, the usage of one of them is mandatory.

[AncientPC]

40k hands at 7PTBB/100, move up? Stay until you bring it up to 10PTBB/100?

[jtr]

I'm no authority, Ancient, but that looks like safe moving up territory to me. Assuming you want to.