2/4 deepstacks w/ a tricky player

[elnino12]

Stars 2/4 NL, Hero has ~1000, Villain has ~750, I am seen as tight-aggressive and have shown down some strong hands recently. Villain is tricky, semi-loose, and very aggressive with position or when sensing weakness.

Folds around to Hero in MP1 with 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, Hero raises to $12, folds around to Villain in CO who calls, all others fold.

2 to the FLOP ($30): 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Hero leads out for $26, Villain raises to $60, Hero calls

TURN($150): J /images/graemlins/heart.gif, Hero checks, Villain checks

RIVER($150): 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, Hero checks, Villain bets $184, Hero?

Some might argue the preflop play is shaky, but as it is, should I have re-raised the flop, bet the turn, blocking bet the river (this is something I regret not doing)? What's your play on each street? Thanks in advance /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Nino

[Kaz The Original]

Make it $200 on the flop.

[Deftoner]

[ QUOTE ]
Make it $200 on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line a lot.

[lapoker17]

Elnino - Don't act like a pussy...

[elnino12]

"Don't act like a pussy... "

Very insightful and informative. Maybe I should be more of a dick, but that role seems to already be taken...

-Nino

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
"Don't act like a pussy... "

Very insightful and informative. Maybe I should be more of a dick, but that role seems to already be taken...

-Nino

[/ QUOTE ]

my posts around here have been reduced to just one liners that aren't too funny, but does anyone else see the subtle humor in the above post? i laughed for a while.

[solid]

You've gotta make the third raise on the flop, I think.

If no, I either blocking bet this river or committ to calling this bet against soros. Checking the turn is a very odd move and very out of character...I don't think I've ever seen him do this with any sort of made hand.

[Lawrence Ng]

You need a blocker bet on the river. I'd say 1/3 the pot or so will do nicely.

Lawrence

[telltale]

If you call the flop raise and that J hits I see it as a blank. His re-raise looked more like a steal (KQ or two diamonds). Bet the Turn for 150. Or RR the Flop and take the pot, but if he holds two big diamonds AND is willing to draw for big money then he might just Move-in on you after you re-raised the flop putting you in essentially a race situation. As for your river call that is more difficult. At this point you need to know what his Turn check meant. You checked to him so from what you told us it doesn't seem impossible that he's bluffing the river. You could call here and pick him off. I lean towards calling without evidence to the contrary.

[Chief911]

The player you describe acted exactly as you expect him too. Tricky, thus the raise on a fairly innocent flop that he tried to limp in on. He assumes you dont have it, so he should have the pot.

I like min-reraising here to see how he stands. But a call isn't bad. Here's the question.

On the flop, do you feel like your pair of 3's is good? Or were you calling his raise in hopes of hitting one of your 10 clean outs?

If you did think your 3's are good, I like to toss out a feeler bet on the turn. You called his raise, and are playing into him again on the turn. He'll most likely lay down his hand.

IF it gets checked like it did (Hello diamond draw), and the river misses the diamond draw, you HAVE to bet here. You can bet out a blocking bet, or even a 1/2 the pot. But you have to lead out.

I had fun playing with ya last night. How would you describe me after that hour?

Nick

[BluffTHIS!]

The question here besides what likely hands villain might have, is what he puts YOU on, and it's surely not the hand you had. Most likely he puts you on AK/AQ or a medium pocket pair and was merely testing/buying free cards with the flop raise. You should definitely bet the turn in my opinion and if he actually has a monster he'll let you know and you can fold. This avoids the river decision you had out of position, in which case case the blocking bet was the only option short of check/folding.

[elnino12]

Hey all,

Thanks a bunch for the posts. It definitely seems like I need to take a little more aggressive approach on this hand--if not on the flop, then especially on the river (since it clearly looks like he missed his flush). I think a turn check is OK here, but a river bet is definitely in order...maybe of about $60.

FWIW...He admitted to just being on a draw and said he was scared when I took a while to think about calling his river bet, so a bet on my part would've probably taken it down. I guess hindsight is 20/20 /images/graemlins/smirk.gif...

BTW Chief, I'd describe you as looser than your average Chinese prostitute, but you play the part real well. Not the prostitute part of course. Not to help you clean my clock or anything, but I think you need to be more aggressive after preflop raises when you miss as well. You started to telegraph your hands a little toward the end, usually when you were out of position with a hand you were slightly unsure about. This lets people draw cheap and allows them to bully a little, but you seemed to do just fine regardless /images/graemlins/smile.gif...maybe no one else was noticing it.
Anyways ,that was one of the best tables I've played at in a while, and I had a blast sitting to your left...hope to see you soon.

Thanks again
-Nino

[elnino12]

"If no, I either blocking bet this river or committ to calling this bet against soros. Checking the turn is a very odd move and very out of character...I don't think I've ever seen him do this with any sort of made hand."

Soros it was, and I have never seen him do this either, which should've been even more reason to bet the river, but alas I blew it... I think he checked because he thought I might have AJd or JJ, and thought I might be trapping (since I had just done this and taken a large pot). Nevertheless, his turn check was extremely weak, since there are so many draws and he's got to bet them out with any real hand. Oh well...live to fight another hand.

-Nino

[Chief911]

Nino,

Its more fun to be to my right though. That way you can limp-reraise as often as you want.

I was amazed how often people continued to limp with that being their true intention, only to fold to my raising.

Nick

[elnino12]

"Its more fun to be to my right though. That way you can limp-reraise as often as you want."

True true, but then I'm either playing all the decent hands (suited conns, small pairs, AQo, etc) out of position, and all my strong hands out of position with huge pots. I agree that with you on MY left, I would become like an all-time button, but there were so many LAG players at our table, that I thought position on you and Preposterous was more advantageous than the ability to LRR every time I get a hand. And also, you'd start to notice when I had great hands, and I would have to smooth call out of position, or raise so hard PF that you might fold anyways, or fold unless you hit a miracle flop that puts me way behind.

I was also surprised at the passive play by many others, but oh well /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Nino

[Chief911]

Elnino,

That has been the interesting part so far about the play at the 2/4 level. I'm obviously experimenting in how I play. And I somewhat cultivate that image by the chat that I use to my advantage. I see a ton of flops, and most all of them for a raise and reraise. But I'm fairly confident no one can put me on any kind of hand (Ex. Soros going allin overtop my 50$ re-re-raise with AJ), and has little idea where they are after the flop. This results in alot of people laying down hands on the flop and turn that probably are better than whatever random holding I have. And the 2/3 of the time they lay it down, makes up for the 1/3 the time they have something, and call/raise me. Then the gravy is when I ACTUALLY have something, either pre or post. In that 1.5 hour session, where I played 60%ish hands, I would have ended up around $1600 if not for Soros river ace.

Anyhow, here's my question. At the end of the session, was your true impression of me a total maniac? Or someone who somewhat knew what they were doing? Or someone who knew exactly what they were doing? Be honest. I'd like to know what the end result image was of me after I left.

Nick

[elnino12]

Nick,

You obviously knew what you were doing, and you weren't a complete maniac, but I felt that there were enough players (either weak, or aggressive when trying to bully you) who could make your strategy work. In other words, the weaker players would get involved with marginal hands and fold to your bets even when you probably had a worse holding. On the flipside, you were able to make your most money when people got involved and over-aggressive with slightly better hands than normal, but would call you down with TPTK or even TPWeakK and lose a good-sized pot.

The way you were playing makes it imperative that you have very good reads on nearly every player at the table, or at least the ones who are splashing in a lot of the same pots as you. From what I saw, you had these reads and were able to use them for your benefit. You were able to win a lot of smalls pots via bluffing, win some big pots when people thought you were bluffing, and keep pots small that you were unsure about. Overall, I'd say you played real well for the style that you chose, and while some might pin you as a maniac, you seemed to have enough control that it worked out for you.

Once again, I think you need to keep your bets a little more consistent. For instance, a minraise from you usually showed weakness/uncertainty, a mid-sized bet meant you had some good outs but didn't want to be pot-committed, and a large bet usually meant you had something to go to the felt with. Maybe this isn't how you always play, but I started to be able to put you on hands after a little while. One example was you raised to $16 preflop, and I called behind you with 99. The flop was QJx rainbow, and you bet 12. I immediately put you on A10 or AK and called you down until a 10 came on the river. You then bet pretty hard, making it fairly obvious that you had AK, and I could get away from the hand. If you don't want to bet a ton on your bluffs, maybe consider betting weak when you have good hands every now and then in order to throw your opponents off. So basically, if you're going to play like a semi-maniac, don't be a predictable one. Sorry for the long-windedness, but I hope it helped. See ya around Chief.

-Nino

[Chief911]

Exactly what I was looking for. I agree, normally I'll have more variance than I did last night. And actually, normally I'm able to put the entire table on more tilt than I did last night. Soros is a tough nut to go against, because he understands for the most part the correct strategy to take against me. Prepost did a bit, but then gave up on it when I had a monster and took his $$. =)

I'm still not sure if there is good long term profitability in it, simply because even some of the mediocre players may catch on more than they are right now. But I'll say this, it sure is fun. Short term profitability wise, and having a ball playing.

Nick

[solid]

[ QUOTE ]
Prepost did a bit, but then gave up on it when I had a monster and took his $$. =)

[/ QUOTE ]

When did this happen? I don't remember you having any monsters...

[Chief911]

I think you're right. That was someone else. Really only played one or two hands to the river with you, and none monsters. Just the one where I had tp and called it down.

Was fun last night though wasn't it? =)

[solid]

Haha, yeah. I only stopped reraising you preflop because the hands I was getting even I couldn't bring myself to play. And the one time I did it for old times' sake with 84o you pushed all in over the top. How rude.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
One example was you raised to $16 preflop, and I called behind you with 99. The flop was QJx rainbow, and you bet 12. I immediately put you on A10 or AK and called you down until a 10 came on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why didn't you raise him on the flop or turn?

[elnino12]

"Why didn't you raise him on the flop or turn? "

I called the flop, he checked the turn and I bet and he called...river was the 10, so he bet strong and I thought I was pretty clearly behind. I folded and he flashed AK.

I realize the original post was off, as I was just giving a quicky example. Whoops.

-Nino

[Ulysses]

That makes more sense. Did you bet enough on the turn?

[elnino12]

"Did you bet enough on the turn? "

Probably not...there were 2 overcards, a flush draw, and a straight draw all on board, and I didn't have SO much confidence in my read that I could bet all those hands out of the pot. I admit it was a little weak on my part, but I usually like keeping pots a little smaller against slightly LAG players, especially when I don't have an amazing hand. This could be seen as a leak, or just me being a little weak-tight. I certainly am nowhere near mistake-free, and the originally posted hand makes this pretty clear. Anyways, thanks for the comments.

-Nino