When to slow down

[Kevin J]

I open raised from early with QQ. A good aggressive player (GAP) re-raised. The button cold called 3 bets. I called. 3-way.

The flop came Ad,Qd,7c.

I checked, GAP bet, button called, I check/raised, GAP and button called.

The turn was an off 6. I bet, GAP raised, button folded, I re-raised, GAP capped. I made a crying call.

The self-appointed table captain (who also generously dispenses free hold'em lessons to anyone who will listen), said I lost too much on the hand. I'm not one of his willing listeners and I don't discuss hands at the table, but he at least made me think. He said I should've known GAP had AA. After all, he 3-bet me before the flop.

GAP is aggressive and I've seen him 3-bet early raisers with hands like 77, AQs, etc. I also thought he was aggressive enough to raise the turn with AK hoping to check it down. Given this, was my re-raise on the turn poor? I don't like losing 7.5 big bets on any hand, but I think that's about right when your unfortunate enough to be on the wrong end of set over set. What does everyone else think? Thanks in advance.

The GAP may 3 bet other early raisers with 77, but will he do that with you? For his sake I hope not.

AQs may have 1 combination, but you have represented AQ or better, so why would he go crazy with just AK? I doubt AK is doing this, because it's too easy for you to have AQ or QQ (or AA, if I've been an influence...).

So, If we rule out AK, we have:

AQs - 1 or 0 ways.
AK with 4 flush - not possible.
77 - 3 ways, but there's some doubt about this hand
AA - 3 ways
a bluff - almost impossible.

Since there's now a heads up pot after his turn raise, you need to be 3-2 for a value re-raise on the turn.

Since you are not, after he raises the turn, I would call it down.

If he has AK, you got more than your share of action anyway.

Better luck.

Dan Z.

I'm pretty sure that I'd have done the same....who's giving lessons over there anyway?

Mike

[Kevin J]

Thanks Dan-

I used to have the simple philosophy that if someone is ever lucky enough to flop a bigger set than me, then they're just gonna have to take my money. And probably a decent amount of it. I firmly believe there are times in this game when you are simply destined to lose some money. I think set-over-set is one of those times.

As my game improves, I try not to use blanket concepts like this anymore. I'm looking for ways to discern when a certain subtlety might exist, which would lead to more information and enable me to use a different approach. The numbers you give certainly make sense to me.

I realized right on the flop I might be in a set-over-set situation. Still, it didn't feel right to slam on the brakes with a big set just because a guy raised me once on the turn. I'd feel silly, de-masculated, and more than a little sick if he were to check it down behind me with AK,AJs,AQs,77.

So even though your numbers make sense, I'm still not sure I want to back off here.

Another thing I should've mentioned is that there are a few players in this particular room who have me firmly tagged for weak/tight (and this player was one of them). In their mind I play straight out of the book. I think I do a pretty good job of using this image to my advantage, but I also think it makes me a little more likely to get played with. When you have my weak/tight image I think it's important to let them know it can get expensive raising for free showdowns and/or attempting to semi-bluff raise me off a hand. So it's for this reason too, that I tend to be a little over-aggressive on the turn at times. But I definitely need to think more about this. Thanks again.

[MichaelD]

Kevin,

I think you played the hand just fine. You did not lose too many bets at all. When a player loses a pot in a set over set situation, he is bound to give up some bets. You simply fell into an unavoidable situation here - nothing more, nothing less.

In regards to the &$#@^%&@$^ player giving lessons at the table, try and remember that this particular individual was a verbal expert at the table on EVERY subject including dietary needs, athleticism, and peak performance for professional athletes. I almost fell off the chair when he told me he was a professional athlete (and I think he said in more than one sport but I was so shocked I am not sure if I was hearing correctly). He then went on to discuss an athletes peak performance percentage and relate it to an extended period of time relative to energy bars. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

The comments coming out of this guys mouth were nonsensical at best on this particular day. I will not judge him or these comments or this one session, as this was the first time I have had the unique experience of sitting next him for 10 hours. But suffice it say that based on his play and ensuing commentary after each and every hand, I would not even consider worrying about this persons comments.

You simply got beat by a better hand.

Just some thoughts...

Michael D.