Argh, Friggin Kids, What To Do About Player Ages For Home Poker

[grandgnu]

Alright, lately I've been getting emails from these kids that are 16 and 17 who want to play at my home games.

I haven't been able to find the laws in regards to ages for playing poker tournaments in Massachusetts (although I have found info about the legality of running home games)

So anyway, I obviously want to keep my events legal and running strong, they've become quite popular. I know that Casinos require you to be 21 to enter because of the drinking, but some have bingo halls that allow 18 year olds (and of course 18 year olds can purchase scratch tickets, lottery, etc.)

While I allow those 21+ to bring their own booze, I do not supply any of my own. And you could have a party at your house with under-21 people and still have drinks as long as the under-21's weren't drinking, so I'm relating this as similar.

Does anyone know what the deal is with the ages of players for home poker? I believe that 18+ is permissable, and thus far the 16 and 17 year olds have been responsible enough to let me know their ages in emails. I'm just worried that someone who isn't of legal age is going to lie and try to get into my events. Or they may produce a fake ID.

Should I be worried/paranoid? Should I start requesting ID's of those who look like they may not be 18+? How can I spot the fakes, I'm no club bouncer. Arrgggh! /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[lighterjobs]

i would just make it 21+ to be safe. with all the recent raids and such, i wouldn't take my chances.

[rusellmj]

Where I work we have really strict rules regarding ID for drinking. You must have one of the following: A current driviers license or military ID. These days, most states havegood licenses with holograms and clear statements as to whether a driver is over 21. At least here in SoCal. Don't accept anything out of date or anything that looks "funny". You should be familiar with the license of your state. By law we can't even serve somone with a long white beard if they don't have a current (up to date) license in their possesion. Just a couple tips if your going to card the young ones.

Russ

[ericslagle]

Here's what I do whenever I have a question about anything to do with poker here in WA: I just call the Gambling Commissioner. I don't know if I spelt that right, but I do k now that they will answer your questions and then there's no wondering anymore. They sometimes have to call you back, but usually they can answer your question in less than 5 minutes.
I looked up the number in the phone book, or you could call the local police dept or city hall.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
i would just make it 21+ to be safe. with all the recent raids and such, i wouldn't take my chances.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even with that, I'd still have to check ID's, since there are plenty of over 21's that look younger.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Where I work we have really strict rules regarding ID for drinking. You must have one of the following: A current driviers license or military ID. These days, most states havegood licenses with holograms and clear statements as to whether a driver is over 21. At least here in SoCal. Don't accept anything out of date or anything that looks "funny". You should be familiar with the license of your state. By law we can't even serve somone with a long white beard if they don't have a current (up to date) license in their possesion. Just a couple tips if your going to card the young ones.

Russ

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm hoping I won't have to resort to carding people. I want to keep my games fun and entertaining. I have enough work to do setting everything up and chasing down the stragglers, without having to worry about some 17 and 1/2 year old who wants to play poker. *sigh*

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I do whenever I have a question about anything to do with poker here in WA: I just call the Gambling Commissioner. I don't know if I spelt that right, but I do k now that they will answer your questions and then there's no wondering anymore. They sometimes have to call you back, but usually they can answer your question in less than 5 minutes.
I looked up the number in the phone book, or you could call the local police dept or city hall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm.....I'm guessing the local PD or city hall would give me the "um, er" response around these parts. And the gambling commission is likely to tell me anything that threatens their lottery ticket sales is not permitted. :P

I'll have to dwell on this.

[AngryCola]

I'm curious.
Why do you always change the subject line when you post?

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious.
Why do you always change the subject line when you post?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it makes it easier to get through an entire thread. Especially when someone asks a question with different choices (without making use of a poll) and then instead of just making life easy (i.e. using the subject line to provide your response) people just keep it in the body, so you go searching through each one for one-word answers.

Guess I'm just too anal and organized.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Guess I'm just too anal and organized.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, it's not a problem for me. It was just a curiosity I was having at that moment.

Although I have heard changing subject lines can cause problems with the post reminder feature of the boards.

But since I've never used it, I wouldn't know...
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Munga30]

I'm pretty sure poker games are not legal in Mass. Whether or not they are, nothing good can come from allowing strangers under 18 in your game. As long as you're not handing out booze to anyone, I don't think you should worry about carding for 21+. If it gets to the point where someone with authority is checking the age of the people in your game, you have bigger problems to worry about.

[msb]

[ QUOTE ]
By law we can't even serve somone with a long white beard if they don't have a current (up to date) license in their possesion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a hard time believing that's what the law says. I suspect the law simply states that nobody under 21 can be served alcohol... and it's your employer's rule about requiring the licence -- to protect his/her backside.

[samjjones]

The kids will be the first ones to go crying to mommy and daddy when they lose their allowance in your game. So unless you want to get busted, I personally do not allow anybody to play that I don't know personally ahead of time.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure poker games are not legal in Mass. Whether or not they are, nothing good can come from allowing strangers under 18 in your game. As long as you're not handing out booze to anyone, I don't think you should worry about carding for 21+. If it gets to the point where someone with authority is checking the age of the people in your game, you have bigger problems to worry about.

[/ QUOTE ]

The laws state that you cannot play cards or dice in a "public conveyance" or a "private place whilst tresspassing" last I knew. My home does not fall under either of those. And I do not charge any rake or house fee to host the events, thus holding them does not garner me a profit (i.e. running a gambling establishment)

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Massachusetts/

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
The kids will be the first ones to go crying to mommy and daddy when they lose their allowance in your game. So unless you want to get busted, I personally do not allow anybody to play that I don't know personally ahead of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, all of my friends tend to be broke or unreliable. Homepokergames.com allowed me to find plenty of players to keep my events filled (thus larger prize pools, better experience, etc.)

Yes, I run some risk dealing with strangers, but many of them have become good friends and regular attendants of my events. It's either allow the strangers in and take a chance (and have 10-16 players) or only allow friends who are broke and unreliable and only have 3-4 players. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[SugarV]

[ QUOTE ]

I have a hard time believing that's what the law says. I suspect the law simply states that nobody under 21 can be served alcohol... and it's your employer's rule about requiring the licence -- to protect his/her backside.

[/ QUOTE ]

It could state something along the lines of, "...anyone consuming alcohol must have a valid ID..."

When I was on vacation one time my dad forgot his wallet at the hotel when we walked to a local bar to grab a beer...they wouldn't let him in, because he didn't have an ID. Even though it's a tough rule...the punishment is tougher.

sv

[lighterjobs]

yeah, definately. i wouldn't just take some kids word for it. even if he came with a six pack /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[msb]

[ QUOTE ]
When I was on vacation one time my dad forgot his wallet at the hotel when we walked to a local bar to grab a beer...they wouldn't let him in, because he didn't have an ID. Even though it's a tough rule...the punishment is tougher.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any establishment can refuse to serve alcohol to anyone they choose for any reason they want. My guess, it's the bar's rule, not the state's... for the reason you give above: the punishment is too stiff to risk it over selling a few beers (although, I think it's silly to refuse, because of no ID, someone who is obviously old enough -- like your dad).

(Sorry for the OT tangent, guys)

[Civiliste]

I'm sure there must be an attorney (or two, or thousands) registered on this forum who would be better qualified than myself to answer this, but I'll offer my $0.02 as a student of law.

Minors lack legal capacity to contract. Here in Louisiana, and we're a civil law jurisdiction, so YMMV, a person of majority who contracts with a minor runs the risk of having the juridical act declared relatively null when the minor seeks redhibition. What that does, in essence, is renders the act null until such time as the minor chooses to validate it by performance.

I don't have time currently to research the jurisprudence or the statutes of Mass., but I would think that gambling payments would be treated similarly. I.E.: If you allow minors to play, and they demand their money back claiming that they weren't aware that there was a real chance of losing their money, they may have some legal standing to complain. But, at the same time, courts don't enforce gambling contracts (in Louisiana, gambling is an illicit juridical cause, so the act lacks object and is absolutely null). Again, YMMV.

The point of this is, if you decide to let them play, be prepared for a possible (maybe even probable) legal nightmare. If they can bring charges, you won't have much standing to defend, since you've already acknowledged that you are aware of their status as minors.

I may be completely off base, and nothing herein is intended to serve as effective legal counsel or advice. I am NOT a lawyer (yet), nor a member of any law enforcement agency, so take what I say as a grain of salt. If I were in your shoes, the answer would be a flat out, unqualified 'No!'

Just my $0.02,
-Zak

P.S. - I do have access to a number of legal databases, and would be happy to review the statutes and jurisprudence in the Mass. courts re: gambling and age of majority for you. Unfortunately, I have a major research project due Monday, so I haven't much time until next week. Send me a PM if you want and I'll see what I can do.

[TheNoodleMan]

You say you're no bouncer, well guess what, it isn't that hard. Do what bars do, get the book!
http://www.driverslicenseguide.com/us.asp
it is a cheap and effective way to weed out bogus IDs.

[Civiliste]

I thought about this a little more, and looked at Title IX of the La Revised Statutes (criminal statutes), and the Mass. law should be similar, and the more I think about it, the worse this situation looks for you.

These are minors. So, if they're at your house, guess what happens when, say, they decide to crack a brew they smuggled in inside their bags. What if they smoke cigarettes at your place and it pisses off their parents? What if they break curfew (if your state has a mandatory curfew for minors or persons under 17 years of age)? What happens when they step outside for 'some air' and decide to fire one up? What if they lied to their parents and didn't tell them where they were going? What if they saw that freakin' movie one time to many and fancy themselves quite the sneaky Pete's, and start colluding, and end up getting their arses kicked up around their ears?

I really know nothing of Mass. law, but here in La, it could be a horrible can of worms. From your p.o.v. I wouldn't hesitate to liken it to a legal Pandora's Box!

Can you say 'Contributing to the Deliquency of a Minor'?

I repeat what I said earlier, this is just asking for trouble, and my answer would be a hard and fast 'No, sorry, you can't participate.'

I know I sound like a doomsday prophet, but, really, the legal ramifications are considerable. I know most of this is highly improbable, but, somebody I respect a great deal once told me 'You should always pray for the best, while secretly preparing for the worst.' Great deference should always be given to the worst possible scenario. As a poker player, you are well aware that the laws of statistics will almost always bust somebody, so you have to do anything you can to make sure that it isn't you!

-Zak (again)

[dabluebery]

I think you've about covered the doomsday predictions. Personally, I think you're going too far.

Advice? Don't let anyone play that you don't know / have reason to distrust for any reason. At my home games, there's a 16 year old kid that plays with us, consistently. He's not half bad. The stakes aren't that high, and he understands the deal. Further, his older brother plays regularly, and I even know his parents are OK with him coming to my house and playing cards. No problem.

However, there are a few people who I've had at home games, and I wouldn't trust them not to drink the Nyquil from my medicine chest - 18, 21, or older. So they don't come back, because I don't have a seat for them anymore.

I wouldn't get caught up making rules and absolute policies, outside of the easy ones, like no drugs, no drinking, whatever your rules are. You could be opening a can of worms if there's a young kid drinking, but besides that, don't worry too much. After all you're already hosting an "illegal" poker game, in many respects.

Good luck.

Rob

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure there must be an attorney (or two, or thousands) registered on this forum who would be better qualified than myself to answer this, but I'll offer my $0.02 as a student of law.

Minors lack legal capacity to contract. Here in Louisiana, and we're a civil law jurisdiction, so YMMV, a person of majority who contracts with a minor runs the risk of having the juridical act declared relatively null when the minor seeks redhibition. What that does, in essence, is renders the act null until such time as the minor chooses to validate it by performance.

I don't have time currently to research the jurisprudence or the statutes of Mass., but I would think that gambling payments would be treated similarly. I.E.: If you allow minors to play, and they demand their money back claiming that they weren't aware that there was a real chance of losing their money, they may have some legal standing to complain. But, at the same time, courts don't enforce gambling contracts (in Louisiana, gambling is an illicit juridical cause, so the act lacks object and is absolutely null). Again, YMMV.

The point of this is, if you decide to let them play, be prepared for a possible (maybe even probable) legal nightmare. If they can bring charges, you won't have much standing to defend, since you've already acknowledged that you are aware of their status as minors.

I may be completely off base, and nothing herein is intended to serve as effective legal counsel or advice. I am NOT a lawyer (yet), nor a member of any law enforcement agency, so take what I say as a grain of salt. If I were in your shoes, the answer would be a flat out, unqualified 'No!'

Just my $0.02,
-Zak

P.S. - I do have access to a number of legal databases, and would be happy to review the statutes and jurisprudence in the Mass. courts re: gambling and age of majority for you. Unfortunately, I have a major research project due Monday, so I haven't much time until next week. Send me a PM if you want and I'll see what I can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate your assistance and wish you well in becoming part of our corrupt system. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sorry, bit apathetic. The laws are written so that only a minority can truly decipher and weild them, and thus hold power over the majority. I feel the laws should be written in a manner where the majority can easily know their rights, instead of the run around we see nowadays (i.e. you have to jump from one section to the next to determine the "legal" meaning of terms)

The law could say "anyone wearing a green shirt will be arrested" and then about 1,000 pages down say "for the purpose of this law, green means pink, and shirt means pants" and they can get away with it.

But seriously, I do appreciate your assistance. Be aware I have NO intention of allowing any minors to play at my events. I'm just unsure of the 18 vs. 21 issue, I'm fairly confident that 18+ is ok for playing a home poker game, but I'd like to be more sure than I currently am.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you've about covered the doomsday predictions. Personally, I think you're going too far.

Advice? Don't let anyone play that you don't know / have reason to distrust for any reason. At my home games, there's a 16 year old kid that plays with us, consistently. He's not half bad. The stakes aren't that high, and he understands the deal. Further, his older brother plays regularly, and I even know his parents are OK with him coming to my house and playing cards. No problem.

However, there are a few people who I've had at home games, and I wouldn't trust them not to drink the Nyquil from my medicine chest - 18, 21, or older. So they don't come back, because I don't have a seat for them anymore.

I wouldn't get caught up making rules and absolute policies, outside of the easy ones, like no drugs, no drinking, whatever your rules are. You could be opening a can of worms if there's a young kid drinking, but besides that, don't worry too much. After all you're already hosting an "illegal" poker game, in many respects.

Good luck.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not quite sure where you see my game as being "illegal". My events are held on my private property, not in a public bar, etc.

There is no house fee or rake that denotes a profit to myself or anyone else. The only way to win is to play and place in the money. Below is the section of the law that I believe shows my home game is not in violation:

Chapter 271: Section 2 Gaming or betting in public conveyance or place or while trespassing in private place; arrest without warrant

Section 2. Whoever, in a public conveyance or public place, or in a private place upon which he is trespassing, plays at cards, dice or any other game for money or other property, or bets on the sides or hands of those playing, shall forfeit not more than fifty dollars or be imprisoned for not more than three months; and whoever sets up or permits such a game shall be punished by a fine of not less than fifty nor more than one hundred dollars or by imprisonment for not less than three nor more than twelve months. If discovered in the act, he may be arrested without a warrant by a sheriff, deputy sheriff, constable or any officer qualified to serve criminal process, and held in custody, in jail or otherwise, for not more than twenty-four hours, Sunday and legal holidays excepted, until complaint may be made against him for such offence.

[Civiliste]

[ QUOTE ]

Chapter 271: Section 2 Gaming or betting in public conveyance or place or while trespassing in private place; arrest without warrant

Section 2. Whoever, in a public conveyance or public place, or in a private place upon which he is trespassing, plays at cards, dice or any other game for money or other property, or bets on the sides or hands of those playing, shall forfeit not more than fifty dollars or be imprisoned for not more than three months; and whoever sets up or permits such a game shall be punished by a fine of not less than fifty nor more than one hundred dollars or by imprisonment for not less than three nor more than twelve months. If discovered in the act, he may be arrested without a warrant by a sheriff, deputy sheriff, constable or any officer qualified to serve criminal process, and held in custody, in jail or otherwise, for not more than twenty-four hours, Sunday and legal holidays excepted, until complaint may be made against him for such offence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your games will not be covered by this statute. This statute applies to games of chance taking place:

1.) In public places (basically, any property maintained by the state in its public capacity and intended for service of the public)
2.) On public conveyances (streets, sidewalks, or in public transportation, as far as I can figure)
3.) In a private place when trespassing (private property without permission)

Your events, held at a private residence, at the invitation of the owner, don't fit any of these categories.

-Zak

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Chapter 271: Section 2 Gaming or betting in public conveyance or place or while trespassing in private place; arrest without warrant

Section 2. Whoever, in a public conveyance or public place, or in a private place upon which he is trespassing, plays at cards, dice or any other game for money or other property, or bets on the sides or hands of those playing, shall forfeit not more than fifty dollars or be imprisoned for not more than three months; and whoever sets up or permits such a game shall be punished by a fine of not less than fifty nor more than one hundred dollars or by imprisonment for not less than three nor more than twelve months. If discovered in the act, he may be arrested without a warrant by a sheriff, deputy sheriff, constable or any officer qualified to serve criminal process, and held in custody, in jail or otherwise, for not more than twenty-four hours, Sunday and legal holidays excepted, until complaint may be made against him for such offence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your games will not be covered by this statute. This statute applies to games of chance taking place:

1.) In public places (basically, any property maintained by the state in its public capacity and intended for service of the public)
2.) On public conveyances (streets, sidewalks, or in public transportation, as far as I can figure)
3.) In a private place when trespassing (private property without permission)

Your events, held at a private residence, at the invitation of the owner, don't fit any of these categories.

-Zak

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a link to the laws I found: http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Massachusetts/

The item above does mention playing at "cards" which is not necessarily a game of "chance" completely. It can be shown that many poker professionals consistantly do well in these games through their skills, not just based on luck/chance.

Are you saying my game isn't "covered" by these laws (i.e. not violating them because it doesn't meet their description) or isn't "covered" by them because there are other laws that would apply to a home poker event?

[dabluebery]

I apologize for being vague. What I meant is that there's probably going to be very little for you to rely on when looking for "unquestionable" legality of your game.

Everyone here, and in legal forums, sorts through statutes, trying to interpret jurisdiction, intent, etc. It seems to me that anything cloaked in this much suspicion may as well be "illegal," for our purposes, in a practical sense. As in, not definitely legal.

I know that for me, I host home poker games in New York. I've inquired here and there about the legality, and have basically the same results as you've had in this forum. So, it's vague for me, and it's my choice to host games, despite knowing that they may not be 100% legal, because even if it is *legal*, I'm not going to be the one to petition the courts and spend a lot of money to prove it.

Good luck.

Rob

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I apologize for being vague. What I meant is that there's probably going to be very little for you to rely on when looking for "unquestionable" legality of your game.

Everyone here, and in legal forums, sorts through statutes, trying to interpret jurisdiction, intent, etc. It seems to me that anything cloaked in this much suspicion may as well be "illegal," for our purposes, in a practical sense. As in, not definitely legal.

I know that for me, I host home poker games in New York. I've inquired here and there about the legality, and have basically the same results as you've had in this forum. So, it's vague for me, and it's my choice to host games, despite knowing that they may not be 100% legal, because even if it is *legal*, I'm not going to be the one to petition the courts and spend a lot of money to prove it.

Good luck.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I have no interest in going to the courts either. Massachusetts is VERY protective of its lottery ticket sales, thus shuttling everyone down to Connecticut if they want to play in a casino.

I also have no interest in allowing anyone under 18 to play poker at my events, or anyone under 21 to drink alcohol. I supply complimentary sodas, but that's it.

Checking further on that website about gambling laws, the guy breaks down the various states and describes whether "social" gambling is permitted. It does list "unclear" for my State, but it also lists that poker is viewed as a game requiring skill in my State, as opposed to some States that view any poker game that requires any ounce of "chance" to not factor it as a game of skill.