KK hand against a respected 2+2'er....

[Jonny]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 :#A500AF(Solid 2+2'er)/ raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 :#A500AF(Solid 2+2'er)/ calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Solid 2+2'er checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, Solid 2+2'er calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Solid 2+2'er checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Solid 2+2'er bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Solid 2+2'er 3-bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11.16 BB

[Shillx]

Your plan in this hand is weird. If I'm the 2+2er I'm putting you on exactly AK when you raise the river (this is a case where you don't want the BB to overcall). The 2+2er might be betting AJ or AQ with hopes of folding you out here, but it would take a lot of something to 3-bet a hand like that. Out of curiousity, why did you check the turn? I feel like calling the river is a better play in this spot given the turn check.

Brad

[cnfuzzd]

bet the turn

this wasnt me was it?

peace

john nickle

[adamstewart]

wtf r u doing *not* betting this turn?

(wouldn't it be amazing for you if the river was a 7 or a /images/graemlins/club.gif)

dumb


Adam

[Barry]

Yikes, why you checking the turn here. I'd bet and call down if checkraised on the turn.

The way you played it, on the river do you think that there is a 10% chance that he has something besides 77, 88, 99 or AA here? With your turn check, he might be 3 betting with a wider range of hands than that.

[Jonny]

[ QUOTE ]
bet the turn

this wasnt me was it?

peace

john nickle

[/ QUOTE ]

actually it was you. I played this one bad. Usually I play SH.

I know the turn play sucked, but how about the river. I'm thinking calling down would be better?

[EliteNinja]

Doesn't matter who you're playing there.
You should always bet the turn.
Gotta make him pay to draw no matter what he's got.

[Shillx]

Got the balls to 3-bet that river with AJ? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Brad

[BottlesOf]

I thought you said "respected?"



















/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Nate tha' Great]

Ooh, there are some problems here.

I think you need to decide on the turn whether you want to bet and fold to a check-raise and risk giving up a free card but avoid being vulnerable to a bluff, or just go ahead and take a cheap showdown. I think the former line is a lot better here since you are up against two opponents. Not only does this mean that a free card is more harmful if you are presently ahead, but it also protects you against a bluff ... if you bet, the BB calls, and the 2+2er raises, you're behind like 99% of the time and have an easy fold.

If you do decide to check through the turn, the last thing you want to do is raise a river blank, as you will likely either have a hand that's way behind your opponent's (in which case he will not call the raise) or way ahead of it.

What's more, I don't even know that you can fold to a 3-bet. Your whole play in the hand is so strange that your oppoent could mistakenly be 3-betting with a worse hand thinking that it's for value, and he could also be bluffing with a weaker hand since your play on the turn really indicates that you're scared.

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
Got the balls to 3-bet that river with AJ? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

The hand makes more sense if you know that i whiffed on my turn checkraise attempt. Pocket 8's.

peace

john nickle

[smartalecc5]

lol, whiffed.

It makes sense now- interesting play !

[QTip]

Holy cow....I don't like this at all. Have to bet this turn and have to call this river....I don't care who your opponent is.

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, whiffed.

It makes sense now- interesting play !

[/ QUOTE ]

hero in the hand should have bet the turn. Thats already been discussed. Its much easier to put me on AQ/KQ or 99/TT than 88, especially since i called the flop. I hate whiffing.

The river is debatable. I could be saying that i have a pair with my intial bet, or perhaps AK/AQ. Hero is telling me he beats those with his raise. I then tell him he is beat with my 3bet. I dont hate this fold, particularly against a "respected" 2+2er. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

peace

john nickle

[WillMagic]

Wow...pretty bad, man.

Bet the turn.

Call the river 3-bet. PLEASE call it.

Will

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
against a "respected" 2+2er.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the most controversial part of the hand, and it's not even close. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Brad

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


The hand makes more sense if you know that i whiffed on my turn checkraise attempt. Pocket 8's.



[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't bet a highly coordinated flop with a set of 8s? Why not? Bet that sh[/i]it and bet it hard. If you're lucky, Hero's KK will raise and you can 3-bet it. Way to get the least money out of a set, John.

What kind of a second-rate slowplay is this?

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


The hand makes more sense if you know that i whiffed on my turn checkraise attempt. Pocket 8's.



[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't bet a highly coordinated flop with a set of 8s? Why not? Bet that sh[/i]it and bet it hard. If you're lucky, Hero's KK will raise and you can 3-bet it. Way to get the least money out of a set, John.

What kind of a second-rate slowplay is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

If hero in the hand is going to go multiple bets on the flop, he is also likely to go multiple bets on the turn. Granted, the turn card wasnt the best for my slowplay, but im not putting BB or Hero on a 7. Its already been discussed that hero should have bet the flop. The only real question is did i miss out on charging the BB as much as possible for his likely draw.

In this situation i was putting hero on a big overpair, and knew that he was a tag. I also assumed he had at least noticed my play, and my call on the flop should have told him i felt i was drawing to something, and he should have charged me to draw. Then i am trapping both him and (most likely) the BB for an extra bet. If i check raise the flop, or 3 bet, i dont think he is paying me off as much on the later streets. Against an unknown, or a more lag player, i would checkraise the flop.

peace

john nickle

[bones]

Someone mentioned it on a previous thread, but I'll say it again. Playing passive on the turn, then betting and folding to a raise is an epidemic on these boards.

You're screaming that you're not happy about your hand, then when you actually do value bet, you fold to someone who picks up on the obvious. Considering the pot sizes on these hands, someone just has to get you to fold ~%10 to make it profitable. Unless you're consistently playing the weakest of the weak and tightest of the tight, this has to be a huge leak.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


If hero in the hand is going to go multiple bets on the flop, he is also likely to go multiple bets on the turn. Granted, the turn card wasnt the best for my slowplay, but im not putting BB or Hero on a 7. Its already been discussed that hero should have bet the flop. The only real question is did i miss out on charging the BB as much as possible for his likely draw.

In this situation i was putting hero on a big overpair, and knew that he was a tag. I also assumed he had at least noticed my play, and my call on the flop should have told him i felt i was drawing to something, and he should have charged me to draw. Then i am trapping both him and (most likely) the BB for an extra bet. If i check raise the flop, or 3 bet, i dont think he is paying me off as much on the later streets. Against an unknown, or a more lag player, i would checkraise the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I really disagree with this. If Hero is willing to go more bets on the flop and turn, then let him put more bets in on both streets. But the turn can bring a number of cards that scare a big overpair, like a club or a straight card -- I think you're underestimating how coordinated this flop is. Just bet this flop. If Hero raises, I might be okay with you smooth-calling and check-raising the turn, but I really think you need to start value betting this set.

Anyway, if you are so confident Hero has a big overpair, why would you think he wouldn't pay you off? On a board of undercards, KK will call this down every time. I think you really missed out on a lot of bets here.

Tell ya what -- post this hand from your point of view and see what SSers have to say about it.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
If hero in the hand is going to go multiple bets on the flop, he is also likely to go multiple bets on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

not with just one pair. turn raise respect &gt; flop riase respect, especailly on a drawy, low card board v. a pfr.

many times in this spot you will still be able to check-raise the turn after putting in a flop raise.

[meep_42]

Not to mention that AK may not be betting the turn here.

-d

[cnfuzzd]

the more i think about it, the more i disagree with myself. Second rate slowplay indeed.

peace

john nickle

[deadmunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Holy cow....I don't like this at all. Have to bet this turn and have to call this river....I don't care who your opponent is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus, I thought I was the only one who had this thought.
I have to pay this off, Respected or not given the same cards over 1000 times and calling down to the river I am pretty sure my KK is gonna be good more times than 88.

Regards D

[deadmunny]

Just another thought, If you respect this player and feel you are beaten, you already checked the turn, check the river.

Regards D

[lehighguy]

Are you like crazy. Bet the turn and fold to raise. Certainly don't do what you did on the river, that was rediculous.

[Clarkmeister]

Jonny "I check the turn and fold to a 3-bet on the river"
Nickle "I missed my turn checkraise with 88"

Wow, you both played this one like crap. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Evan]

I get all giddy when Clark decides to come in and answer all the SS posts.

[bisonbison]

Bet the turn.