Explain something to me about the NHL situation

[pshreck]

This is what I know, and I am confused....

1. Just about all teams and the league are losing money on Hockey.

2. The league wants to cut money from players to make teams profitable.

3. Players don't want to lose any salary, and aren't budging.

My question is, what is the players realistic alternative... do they think owners are making too much? Why is a salary cap so bad in a league that is one big economic stinkbomb?

[WEASEL45]

i think the players said they would take a pay cut of like 15% and the owners declined

[Punker]

The players think that the owners will buckle under and continue with the status quo of overpaying, and the people who run the union are the high paid players who can afford a year's lost salary. Looks like they are losing that bet.

The rank and file players currently playing have usually maybe 5 years to play, they don't care if the league goes bust 5 years from now due to economic conditions today as long as they can make enough in those 5 years to be set.

The players are also too ingrained with the idea that the NHL is a "major" sport and should be paid salaries comparable to the NBA, NFL, MLB. Simply put, many are not well educated about realities of economics, and getting over optimistic advice from the union leaders.

The personal animosity between Goodenow and Bettman isn't helping either.

Nobody has mentioned the fact that the players do not believe that the owner's books are accurate. They think that the financial condition of the teams is better than presented by the owners.

[swede123]

Punker summed it up rather nicely, particularly the part about the league (incorrectly) comparing itself to the other major sports leagues.

Cheers,

Swede

[Punker]

They may be correct that the true condition is better than presented, but even the players don't pretend to believe that the league is in good shape.

[B00T]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is, what is the players realistic alternative...

[/ QUOTE ]

The NHL moreso than any other sport has players from all over the world. Over half the league can go play overseas (most of them for their home countries). This is not like football or basketball where players really don't have a choice of places that will pay them a significant amount of money for their services.

Obviously A-Rod wont get paid 25M being a garbage man. If the most he could get paid anywhere is 4Million its still better than any of his alternatives.

The fact that the players have more options and some of them are perfectly happy playing "at home" anyway makes it a lot harder for the owners to feel that the players need the NHL for work.

And FWIW, earlier in the thread they mentioned a rollback in salaries. The players offered a 25% salary rollback across the board, not 15.

[MicroBob]

Correct...the players offered an across-the-board pay-cut of 25% and the owners declined.

The players are also looking into salary-cap possibilities....but they're still wanting more than the owners are willing to give.


This situation is NOT just the players' fault. I believe there is a fair amount of incompetence, as well as stubborness, on both sides.


If owners hadn't been so dumb to over-pay their players in the first place then this problem likely wouldn't have surfaced.


It kind of reminds me of those financial-planner programs (like Suze Orman or something),

Caller: Well, I got myself out of bad credit-card debt...but a few months later I seem to have maxed-out 11 cards again and I owe $20k and I don't know what to do.
Answer: Don't spend more money than you have (or know you will be able to obtain). In other words...stop buying so much crap!!

Even if the owners are being completely forthright about how much $$ they are losing...why would they spend too much money for a few players when they can easily see how much money they will likely generate in ticket-sales and advertising and damn well know they aren't going to balance it out?


As someone said on one of the sports-talk TV shows (cold pizza or PTI or something).

If I'm a pretty good player and some team offers me $5-mil/yr maybe I should tell them "well...I better only take $2-mil/yr because I'm really concerned that you are going to get yourself in financial trouble by paying me too much."


Nobody made these owners over-pay the players in the first place.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
If owners hadn't been so dumb to over-pay their players in the first place then this problem likely wouldn't have surfaced.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true to a point. However, teams generate different amounts of revenue and some are capable of paying much more in player salaries than others and still make money. The Leafs have a payroll around 60 million and MLSE still makes a boatload of money. There aren't too many teams that can carry that kind of payroll and still make money. There needs to be some sort of system that gives all teams a reasonable opportunity to field a competitive team.

[ QUOTE ]
If owners hadn't been so dumb to over-pay their players in the first place then this problem likely wouldn't have surfaced.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a valid criticism in the realm of professional sports, where (a) fierce competition is at the heart of the success of the business and (b) there is an extremely limited "employee base" from which to select. If you don't compete for players, you become irrelevant and play to empty arenas, like the KC Royals or the Pirates in baseball, or in the NHL take the Islanders or the Penguins, for example. The only reasonable way you can succeed is to have a competitive team, with a few exceptions. And the only way to have a competitive team is to have good players, obviously.

Also, if the owners got together and decided that they would not "overpay" the players, guess who'd be the first ones shouting "collusion".

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody made these owners over-pay the players in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I had been following this, but I have been busy playing poker. I wrote my master's these on the exploitation of labor in MLB and typically professional athletes are underpaid. I have no idea what the case is for the NHL

Randy Refeld

[sammysusar]

there are a few teams who can be profitable and pay huge salaries (new york, toronto, detroit maybe a few others). But if your an owner of a poorer and want to win you may spend more than you can afford to in order to try and stay competitive (owner can take money from other business) so basically the wealthier teams need to be capped to keep the league more competitive and allow teams to reamin somewhat profitable

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
I wrote my master's these on the exploitation of labor in MLB and typically professional athletes are underpaid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh.

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
The NHL moreso than any other sport has players from all over the world. Over half the league can go play overseas (most of them for their home countries). This is not like football or basketball where players really don't have a choice of places that will pay them a significant amount of money for their services.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just because they can go overseas and play in european leagues does not mean that they will earn anywhere near what they could have earned playing in the NHL. Oh and btw, most of the euro leagues have salary caps.

[coltrane]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If owners hadn't been so dumb to over-pay their players in the first place then this problem likely wouldn't have surfaced.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is a valid criticism in the realm of professional sports...The only reasonable way you can succeed is to have a competitive team, with a few exceptions. And the only way to have a competitive team is to have good players, obviously.


[/ QUOTE ]

but having a good team does not mean overpaying....in fact, it's often the opposite.....I believe the problem is that most owners/GM's have not adjusted their way of doing and thinking their business since free agency was introduced....it wasn't that much of a problem in the 80's, but now that salaries have grown exponentially, many teams are practically dysfunctional....

for an example of how a team is supposed to be run, look at the New Jersey Devils.....they're maybe the most successful franchise on the ice over the past decade (3 Stanley Cups, 4 Finals appearances) and they have a very mediocre payroll and not a very big revenue-generating market....it's all because of Lou Lamiorello (their GM)....he adjusted to a "team" strategy where he doesn't give two sh!ts about individual players and therefore doesn't overpay anyone, concentrates on scouting, finds players who are underrated by the market, constructs a team using a logical business/hockey plan....

for an example in baseball, check out the Oakland A's - although I think Lamiorello has being doing things longer and even more impressively than the A's, and he doesn't get nearly the noteriety that Billy Beane does....

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

...and Martin Brodeur.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
...and Martin Brodeur.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is getting paid a lot

so essentially, get a stud goalie, pray he's healthy, and stick some decent players that you draft on the ice.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

If you want to sell tickets and merchandise, you get the stud finesse goal-scorer. If you want to win championships, you spend your money on the goalie.

[Benal]

One of the major problems with the NHL is that a major percentage of their revenue is generated from ticket sales. Now compare this with the NFL or MLB where a huge percentage of their revenue comes from network television broadcast rights... Ever look at ticket prices for a Leafs game? Insane...

[Koller]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because they can go overseas and play in european leagues does not mean that they will earn anywhere near what they could have earned playing in the NHL.

[/ QUOTE ]

One word: Russia

Link (http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/10-10-04cba.htm)

[ QUOTE ]
Oh and btw, most of the euro leagues have salary caps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong.

[B00T]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because they can go overseas and play in european leagues does not mean that they will earn anywhere near what they could have earned playing in the NHL. Oh and btw, most of the euro leagues have salary caps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said they will get paid the same. I said they will still get very large contracts getting paid more there then they ever could doing anything else BESIDES playing hockey.

Many athletes do not have that luxary. In baseball, independent leagues dont pay crap. Americans dont want to leave to go play in Japan for baseball because of families. European players in hockey however, dont mind nearly as much going back home to play their sport.

[MicroBob]

Texas spent $250-mil for A-Rod.
They knew they were over-spending for him.
They knew that getting A-Rod would not automatically mean World Series for them.
They also knew that paying that much would make it very difficult to turn a profit.

They didn't have to sign A-Rod for $250-mil.
LA Dodgers didn't have to sign Kevin Brown for over $100-mil either.

I know my thoughts on this are extremely simple and that there are subtleties and intricacies that I jus don't understand.


But..honestly...how hard is it to just decide to NOT sign a player to a $100-mil contract?


Also - it's amazing to me how so many 'small-market, no-chance' teams suddenly aren't considered small-market anymore when they start winning.

Cleveland was considered too small a market to be successful for decades...but they were one of the most successful teams of the 90's.
Oakland is considered a small-market team as well and have been very successful.
Minnesota hasn't done too shabby either.


Seattle was always considered too small of a market to ever be competitive....then they somehow started winning games and I stopped hearing about how such a small-market like Seattle can't possibly compete at the championship level.

Anaheim is either a small-market 2nd team that just happens to be in a big market (like the White Sox)....or they are a team that plays in a HUGE market.
Now that they have quite a few good players they aren't really considered a small-market team anymore.


The Marlins obviously over-spent to win the series in 97....but when they won it in 2003 I don't think that was the case with them.


Baltimore and the Mets have spent a ton in the past few years and have been pretty awful.


Atlanta, in the meanwhile, is considered large-market...but they keep winning WITHOUT over-spending really.


LA won games last year with the guys that they DIDN'T spend much for. I mean...it's not like Shawn Green carried those guys to the playoffs.


Dont be surprised if TB and PIT are pretty competitive this year.
CIN has a reasonable chance too if their new arms produce.


Everybody wants to narrowly define it as "spend big money and you can buy a championship...that's what the Yankees do" but there are enough exceptions where one has to wonder if it REALLY works that way.
I think it really demeans the Yankees accomplishments to just boil it down to how much money they've spent.
Sure, they have A-Rod and Jeter now and have spent like crazy. But they've also had their fair share of also-rans and players that nobody else was really interested in.

If it was just about the money and market-size then the Mets and Dodgers would have been squaring off in the last 5 NLCS series.

[MelK]

http://www.weatherlord.com/images/journal/events/nhl_lockout.jpg

[coltrane]

two weeks til spring training!

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because they can go overseas and play in european leagues does not mean that they will earn anywhere near what they could have earned playing in the NHL.

[/ QUOTE ]

One word: Russia


[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect. With only 16 teams and most rinks having a capacity of less than 10000 most salaries are far lower than the NHL. I know several players who play in the Russian leauge, and while they earn a decent salary it is nothing like what NHLers make.

The NHL is the best opportunity for these players, but they are throwing it away.

[Shajen]

we need more Microbob in OOT.

Don't worry, your cat will protect you.

[theredwave]

I'm pretty sure there are a couple of players making a million+, probably Jagr, Lecavalier, Brad Richards, Kovalchuk and maybe a couple others. Jagr left the Czech league because the money he was offered by Moscow was much more then what he currently was making, and the few NHLers playing for Ak Bars in Russia are making nearly their equivalent pay in the NHL. Most of the team owners have lots of money from the oil or automobile industries so they don't care if they make a profit this one year when they have the chance to have actual NHL players in the Russian league.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
Everybody wants to narrowly define it as "spend big money and you can buy a championship...that's what the Yankees do" but there are enough exceptions where one has to wonder if it REALLY works that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Yankees did this a lot MORE from 1920-1964. The difference is that in the old days baseball contracts were structured so that a player's previous team got the finacial windfall rather than the player. I have done no research in this area since 1995, but at that time MLB players were underpaid, but not as underpaid as in the past.

Randy Refeld

[Koller]

[ QUOTE ]
most salaries are far lower than the NHL.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree.

You wrote: Just because they can go overseas and play in european leagues does not mean that they will earn anywhere near what they could have earned playing in the NHL.

This (bold) part is incorrect.

[ QUOTE ]
With only 16 teams and most rinks having a capacity of less than 10000 most salaries are far lower than the NHL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, most salaries are far lower than the NHL, but please note that teams and players don't pay taxes in Russia.

[HDPM]

How does the grind compare? I.E. how many games, less physical than NHL, etc.... My impression is that the NHL season followed by a long closely played playoff season is very difficult in the NHL compared to European leagues. Am I right?

[Koller]

[ QUOTE ]
How does the grind compare? I.E. how many games, less physical than NHL, etc.... My impression is that the NHL season followed by a long closely played playoff season is very difficult in the NHL compared to European leagues. Am I right?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, more games in the NHL than in Europe (I.E. 56 regular season games + playoffs in Finland). But in Europe teams usually practice 2 times / day including summer. And in Russia coaches are usually maniacs like I.E. Viktor Tihonov.

Yes, playoffs are more difficult in the NHL than in Europe.

[rusty JEDI]

[ QUOTE ]


for an example of how a team is supposed to be run, look at the New Jersey Devils.....they're maybe the most successful franchise on the ice over the past decade (3 Stanley Cups, 4 Finals appearances) and they have a very mediocre payroll and not a very big revenue-generating market....it's all because of Lou Lamiorello (their GM)....he adjusted to a "team" strategy where he doesn't give two sh!ts about individual players and therefore doesn't overpay anyone, concentrates on scouting, finds players who are underrated by the market, constructs a team using a logical business/hockey plan....


[/ QUOTE ]

Very poor example.

The NJ Devils currently have the 3rd largest payroll in the league.

rJ

[rusty JEDI]

As I see it one major event accounts for players being overpaid.

As i remember it. Sergei Fedorov was a restricted free agent. His current team had the option to match any offer to keep him.

The Carolina Hurricanes offered him a regular sized contract for a superstar, but added in a bonus that stated if they made it to the 3rd round of the playoffs he would get a massive pay raise or bonus. They did this because they knew his current team the Detroit Red Wings were a basic lock to make the 3rd round, so they would be forced to just let him go. Where as they themselves had no chance of making it that far. But the redwings wanted him bad enough and matched the offer.

rJ

[rusty JEDI]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If owners hadn't been so dumb to over-pay their players in the first place then this problem likely wouldn't have surfaced.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true to a point. However, teams generate different amounts of revenue and some are capable of paying much more in player salaries than others and still make money. The Leafs have a payroll around 60 million and MLSE still makes a boatload of money. There aren't too many teams that can carry that kind of payroll and still make money. There needs to be some sort of system that gives all teams a reasonable opportunity to field a competitive team.

[/ QUOTE ]


The players agree with you and want to add revenue sharing. The owners do not.

rJ

[Punker]

I always wondered how far this could go. Like say the Lightning had made Fedorov an offer, but with a $100 million bonus attached in the event that he played more than 20 games in the next season while wearing a red helmet or something.