Flush Draw w/ Axs

[Elektrik]

Party $100
Blinds 10/15
No read on villain yet

UTG (t985)
UTG+1 (t985)
UTG+2 (t985)
MP1 (t1395)
MP2 (t990)
MP3 (t840)
CO (t955)
Button (t970)
Hero (t985)
BB (t910)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, MP3 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t45) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t25</font>, BB folds, MP3 calls t25.

Turn: (t95) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t45</font>, MP3 calls t45.

River: (t185) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t125</font>, Hero calls t125.

Final Pot: t435

[Bigwig]

Your opponent had KJ or KT. Am I right?

His call on the flop looks like: Thanks for giving me the odds to just call and hopefully make my draw -or- you look like you're betting a draw, and maybe my T is good. Because he didn't reraise you on the turn, my guess is that he had KJ.

I suggest checking the flop, then semi-bluffing if you can isolate one player. Small bets like this advertise your hand too much.

[curtains]

I check this flop too, but would bet the turn if checked around. If they bet too much on flop too (like big overbet), I may just fold.
When you bet this flop, you make it more likely the action gets too heavy (I feel People generally raise bets by more than they would open bet with, and it's not pleasant to have to call a 125-150 chip raise with this hand). This isn't something you want with just a draw early in these tournaments. However you don't mind calling a smallish bet to try to bust someone. Also even if you bet and they fold, the money in the pot doesn't mean very much.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I check this flop too, but would bet the turn if checked around. If they bet too much on flop too (like big overbet), I may just fold.
When you bet this flop, you make it more likely the action gets too heavy (I feel People generally raise bets by more than they would open bet with, and it's not pleasant to have to call a 125-150 chip raise with this hand). This isn't something you want with just a draw early in these tournaments. However you don't mind calling a smallish bet to try to bust someone. Also even if you bet and they fold, the money in the pot doesn't mean very much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, now that I think about it, semi-bluffing is bad here, because one of the outs (A) completes the nut straight. So I would check/fold, bluff at the turn if nobody bet the flop and a blank fell.

But, that T isn't necessarily a blank. You'd still bluff at it curtains?

[curtains]

Id bluff at turn if I checked flop. Especially since due to the paired board and the fact that only one card is coming, it's not so annoying to have to lay the hand down, as its lost a lot of value.
If you check flop and they bet, there is almost no way they will bet you out of the pot however...but if you bet flop they might.

[raptor517]

bingo. check the flop, fire at the turn, you can fold if you get raised much, etc. lots of good things about a turn bet that a flop bet wont do for you.

[bigredlemon]

If you're going to bet, bet more on the flop. Check/fold turn, river. Don't lose your stack in an unraised pot. No one's committed to their hands and will only call with a hand that beats yours.

[SuitedSixes]

Fold pre-flop . . . problem solved and t200 saved.

[curtains]

Folding preflop is wrong. If it is correct for you to fold preflop because of poor postflop skills, then you need to improve /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SuitedSixes]

I am poor post-flop and that is exactly why I fold pre-flop. However, it is hands like this that make me glad that I do. If the 2+2 SNG Party line is to be tight in the early Levels, I don't see any benefit of bleeding off chips on a draw.

[curtains]

Well if you check flop you arent going to bleed many chips /images/graemlins/smile.gif Only way you lose a lot of chips with this hand is if your flush comes and it gets sucked out on.
Seriously you should try calling with these hands if you want to improve.

[kyro]

Folding A6s for 1/2000 of my stack seems dumb.

[SuitedSixes]

Thanks, I'm sure I'll be fine.

[johnnybeef]

you've probably already heard this (but i haven't read any responses to this post, so here it is again.) it would behoove you to avoid semibluffing in this stage of the sng. during the first few stages of a sng you only want to value bet, especially into a multiway pot.

[curtains]

Im sure you will, but unless you play really bad postflop, the fold is pretty -ev. Im in favor of folding some close calls if you are inexperienced, but I think this is going too far for 1/2 a bet.

[SuitedSixes]

I don't want to get into a pissing contest a la you and Daliman from a couple of days ago. I think the biggest difference is that you and I play different levels. With 800 chips to begin, starting anything that can lead you to piss away 1/4 of your stack and lose, when stealing blinds is so easy later on, is -EV. If I was a better post flop player it might make a difference, but at the $11s and $22s consistently making this call will kill you.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Im sure you will, but unless you play really bad postflop, the fold is pretty -ev. Im in favor of folding some close calls if you are inexperienced, but I think this is going too far for 1/2 a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect the long term $EV implications of this play are negligible at the level Suited Sixes plays. There are also other factors that come into his decision to fold this pre-flop.

I think it's fine, /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

I hear ya, I'm sure it makes sense for some people, but you have to understand that you are definitely giving something up when you make this fold, and not in a good way.
The above is if you are trying to play as perfectly as possible, but if you are content to fold in such situations and glide to the endgame, I'm sure you aren't losing a ton. But from my point of view, it's hard for anything bad to happen with A6s for half a bet, and quite possible for good things to happen.
If you are not that confident in your postflop abilities, I have no major qualms small +Ev situations. But ok in the future one should aim towards playing in such spots.

[SuitedSixes]

Thanks, Yugo!

http://img215.exs.cx/img215/9237/curtains6qu.jpg

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[curtains]

haha /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Elektrik]

Villains has Jc8c and MHIG

[curtains]

This is what I'm talking about. Often you will flop a higher flush than someone with A6s here, and win a ginormous pot. As long as you can remain careful, and not go crazy just because you have a draw, +ev situations should present themselves.

[rachelwxm]

Just curious, what's the range of hands you complete here. I usually complete with Ax suited but fold Ax not suited. Fold Kx and everything else. Do you complete with these hands with 15/30 blinds as well?

[Insty]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop . . . problem solved and t200 saved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you Suited - easy fold.

Then again I'm not playing in the 100's either.

[akudlac]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding A6s for 1/2000 of my stack seems dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[curtains]

I dont call with Ax, just Axs. I'm actually quite tight in the SB, but Axs is going a bit too far for me.