Big Blind:Pocket JJs and QQs

[Ziggs]

Hi,

This is more of a therotical question than an individual hand.

I have gotten good hands QQ and JJ on the bb.

There are at least 5-6 callers (no raising).

Is it worth it to raise (preflop) or would it be better to see the flop and put in a check raise if the flop is good?

It seems that nobody folds because it's so loose
and the flop comes

K x x
or A x x.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Ziggs

[rmarotti]

Raise every day and twice on sundays.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise every day and twice on sundays.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might even go so far as to say twice evry day and three times on Sundays.

There is almost no reason to not raise this pf.

[adamstewart]

Raise it up. You hold a large pot equity edge over a field of 5-6 limpers.

Just be cautious if an Ace or King flops.


[ QUOTE ]
or would it be better to see the flop and put in a check raise if the flop is good?


[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it this way: Do you raise AK before preflop? Or do you "wait and see if the flop is good"?


Adam

[Ziggs]

Thanks for all the helpful advice. It's just discouraging to lose to K4o. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Kevroc]

Just to mix things up... I like this question and chances are no one is gonna drop if you raise and you make the pot huge and everyone will be stuck in the hand.

Say you raise...
Suppose a A or K flops, do you lead at the pot?
Do you try to check-raise to thin?
Do you check-fold?

Say you check and A or K flops, you can get away fairly confident that you are dead to two outs and you havent lost anything but your blind.

If you check and flop an overpair, it is well disguised.
I just think raising has more ways to hurt you when its soooo multi-way (like 5-6 limpers!)

The JJ and QQ is a pretty one-pair hand but, still a ONE PAIR hand. Depending on other details I think I'd check and see what develops. Perhaps a nice c/r flop is in my future?

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
The JJ and QQ is a pretty one-pair hand but, still a ONE PAIR hand. Depending on other details I think I'd check and see what develops. Perhaps a nice c/r flop is in my future?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to check my QQ, too, because an A or K on the flop let's me get away easily. Same with KK because an A on the flop allows me to get away cheaply. I even often check my AA because a paired, suited, or straight-friendly flop allows me to get away cheaply. Better to check and see what develops.

[/sarcasm]

None of the reasons you list in your post (but I didn't quote) are evenly remotely close to a good reason to check (instead of raise) this hand pre-flop.

[Kevroc]

Okay,

I just think JJ and QQ should be handled more delicately than KK or AA. That really wasn't a fair reply /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I'm not jumping at shadows here. I just don't think it's an automatic raise. I'm trying to show a different thought process concerning a vulnerable pocket pair in the BB in a family pot.

[Catt]

Sorry. I still think it was a fair comment, but I didn't want to jump down your throat as if I was attacking you personally -- but I was trying to attack the lines / proposed thought process you shared. Again, sorry if that felt like I was jumping on you personally.

Your proposed line is foregoing a ton of potential value for very little (and speculative at best) value on later streets. JJ or QQ is a monster hand, and with a bunch of limpers in, you have the opportunity to collect a lot more bets when your hand is very likely the strongest by a wide margin.

If the flop comes AKx suited (in a suit that you don't hold) . . . well you have to play poker. For that matter, if any flop comes that doesn't seem friendly, you have to play poker.

But worrying about what the flop will bring is not an excuse to make -EV plays, and failing to raise a monster like JJ or QQ is -EV. Checking to see what develops is an incredibly weak play, and a mistake.

[Kevroc]

No worries, I'm not offended. I know it may look -EV but...

JJ and QQ are hurting against any A or K.
5-6 players in the pot.. good chance one of them is there
raising makes the pot large and correct for everyone to chase the A or K.

Any input?

[Grendel]

It's like this: You've got 5-6 limpers before you. QQ/JJ will win way more than its "fair share" against 5-6 mediocre hands. You're scooping boatloads of money into a pot that you have the edge to win.

Sure, an evil A or K will flop sometimes, and someone will suck out sometimes, but in the long run winning those 5-6 extra small bets from the limpers will add up to be much more than that extra small bet you put in by raising.

-Grendel

[CallMeIshmael]

This is a clear raise.

You generally want to 3-bet these hands from the blinds as well.

An exception to this, is if the preflop raise comes from an EP raiser and there are many cold callers. A call is a solid play in that situation.