Modification of "move of honor".

[kongo_totte]

Party NL25. New to table, no reads. I'm in SB w/ K K.

Folded to me who pushes. Villian has $20.

Is this a money-making play?

[warlockjd]

+EV but I believe it's higher +EV to make a standard raise.

So you are making a +EV play but still losing EV by not making the optimal one IMO.

[ryanghall]

This would be a better play in the later stages of a tournament, to try and feign weakness.

In a ring game, the BB will likely just fold unless he has quite a good hand.

I usually play big hands hard but limping here actually isn't awful. You can hope he'll view you as weak and raise, trying to take your money and then you can pop him back.

Ryan

[kongo_totte]

Well, what I meant was, is it the general opinion that this is more +EV than a standard raise? Or less?

[istewart]

In this situation it's probably still less, but you negate your positional disadvantage when an ace flops.

[tbach24]

Limping here would be flatout awful. Let him catch a free two pair and stack you because you have an overpair out of position.
Pushing here isn't bad as you may get a caller with a hand like AT, etc.
Raising the standard here will fold the same hands that a MoH would, but you have to play the rest of the hand out of position.

MoH is the best.

[istewart]

Noob analysis.

[NiceCatch]

Don't know if I agree with this analysis. You're heads up with another player, and the chances he catches on you on the flop are very small. Three ways to play it:
1. Slowplay - Hopefully that ace doesn't hit the board, but even if it does, the chances that you win the hand are still pretty good. With luck, he'll raise preflop, and then you could maybe pop him... or if you feel lucky, slowplay even more.
2. Standard raise - Not a bad play, since he has no read on you yet. Does give him some information on your hand though... I hate to do that heads up, with a big advantage.
3. All-in - eh... I dunno. What is the percentage of time a player that just sat down pulls that move, and is actually called? I would tend to believe that players will give you the benefit of the doubt for one hand, and fold... unless they have aces.

I guess it all depends on how tight the table is, which you'll only know from the table stats... if it's a tight table, I'd slowplay. If not... sure, move in. I don't like the standard raise, though, especially heads up. I mean, what flop helps you? You're hating an ace falling, a king doesn't win you any more money... go for the element of surprise.

[istewart]

Assuming a typical SSNL player, you will be called with AA-99, all big aces, big kings, etc.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't know if I agree with this analysis. You're heads up with another player, and the chances he catches on you on the flop are very small.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes this is true, but there are implied odds. And he is getting infinite pot odds to hit his [censored] and then bust you because you have a nasty hand.
[ QUOTE ]
1. Slowplay - Hopefully that ace doesn't hit the board, but even if it does, the chances that you win the hand are still pretty good. With luck, he'll raise preflop, and then you could maybe pop him... or if you feel lucky, slowplay even more.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your plan for the flop if you slowplay and three undercards come out? How about an ace? And a king? Or three of a suit you don't hold? Or three to a straight you aren't close to? Slowplaying is awful. You are out of position.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Standard raise - Not a bad play, since he has no read on you yet. Does give him some information on your hand though... I hate to do that heads up, with a big advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising standard here will put you out of position and only a couple more hands will call you here. This is another awful hand as it's very tricky playing a big pair out of position heads-up.

[ QUOTE ]
3. All-in - eh... I dunno. What is the percentage of time a player that just sat down pulls that move, and is actually called? I would tend to believe that players will give you the benefit of the doubt for one hand, and fold... unless they have aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

The range of hands that your standard PP player is calling with is AA-99 (perhaps more?), AK-AJ, KQ, and a boatload of others. This is easily the best move.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it all depends on how tight the table is, which you'll only know from the table stats... if it's a tight table, I'd slowplay. If not... sure, move in. I don't like the standard raise, though, especially heads up. I mean, what flop helps you? You're hating an ace falling, a king doesn't win you any more money... go for the element of surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing I might like about slowplaying is that if he has something like K2 and the flop comes K22. That would be f'in awesome.

[warlockjd]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping here would be flatout awful

[/ QUOTE ] I limp here vx BB maniac or overly aggressive player, but always looking to rrz and always willing to fold to excessive postflop action.

[fimbulwinter]

I don't really agree with any of this.

fim

[tbach24]

Any reason in paticular? What's your move in this situation?

[fimbulwinter]

the whole baseline of your logic seems gunshy and unhappy to play a monster hand out of position headsup. this is something you have to do to win big. hands that crack kings are hard to come by; it's much easier to get cracked by them, that's why we like seeing them as our starters.

on a party stack, my line is complete if i feel there is more than a 35% chance he'll raise, otherwise I'm raising. as for what to do when raised, that's player dependant, but most often flat call against a good player and raise hard against a tard.

The other thing nobody has adressed is this:
do you plan on stealing blinds in the future? would you like to represent AA/KK when doing so? are you then comfortable open-pushing in order to properly represent your hand? If not, srendi will be mighty angy...

fim

[tbach24]

Very good point. The whole basis of my argument was that I was afraid of getting stacked by letting someone see a cheap flop. I feel that on party this is incorrect because of people who overplay TP. Thanks for the help!

[NiceCatch]

Yeah, exactly my point... though I didn't realize people call all-ins with that range of hands (I don't play at party). What I was angling at is, you hope that they hit top-pair on the flop (or really any pair or draw). Your move on the flop is simple. You open for the pot with scary draws, and maybe open for 1/2 the pot without scary draws. Spike it on the turn, depending on your read (and no scary cards falling, i.e. third flush card, paired board, etc).

I think the bottom line is, playing KK heads-up is almost always going to be profitable, and the way to squeeze the most out of the hand (with no information on your opponent) is to slowplay it preflop.

[Tilt]

At 25NL its much higher EV in my opinion to push here. If you get called 20% of the time and folded the rest, the EV of the play is +28BB, or 112BB/100 (assuming an 80% win rate with the Kings). A 20% call rate is easily achievable at this level, especially when you are new to the table.

Now if you just raise 4XBB, and get called twice or even three times as often, I don't see how the extra 6-9BB you get into the pot preflop are going to add up to that of the one sucker who calls you all-in with their 99.

[Tilt]

All good points Fim. But if you are new to a table, get KK early, I say go for the lottery ticket and hope it calls your number. It has nothing to do with position, its just that at 25NL I find that if you are new to the table you will get called very often if you make a preflop all-in. Players asume you are one of those preflop maniacs.

As for the blind stealing issue, I would just change tables.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
do you plan on stealing blinds in the future? would you like to represent AA/KK when doing so? are you then comfortable open-pushing in order to properly represent your hand? If not, srendi will be mighty angy...

fim

[/ QUOTE ]

representing a hand? on party? wasssthat mean/.?

[mgsimpleton]

i was waiting for someone to make this point! party NL $25 if you are trying to outthink people 3 steps in advance you are thinking 3 steps more than your opponent. limping here is the worst thing i have ever heard... chances are he checks too, the pot is 1 dollar and that's all you ever see. i would raise to 2 dollars and then do everything in my power to get him to bet or rais eme. once party players bet or raise, you can raise them as hard as you want and they won't fold. so maybe check the flop no matter what... then if he checks behind give up your dreams he caught something and lead out the turn? it obviously depends on the flop but anyway limping here is leaving so much money on the table.

[StacysMom]

this is read dependent, if BB is a fish, i push here quite often, they "know u are jsut trying to take their blind," many an A high and K high have made the call here. I dotn have long term stats to show EV, but i knwo its better to do vs a fish.