Last 6-12 Hand : 4 bet with an overpair again!

[KJS]

Final of my 3 interesting 6-12 hands of my Vegas weekend. This game was alternatingly tight and loose, loose when a lot of people limped in EP but not many play every hand type players.

All fold the button who just calls (weak!). I raise in the SB with KK, big blind calls, button calls. I call.

Flop is 8 5 2 rainbow. I bet, BB folds, button raises. I re-raise, button 4 bets.

Turn board is 8 5 2 [5]

Do you like my flop 3 bet, why or why not?
Does anyone fold to the 4 bet?
What hand do you put the button on?
What is your plan from the turn forward?

Thanks for helping with all 3 of these hands...Do they identify any leaks in my game?

KJS

[johnb]

This is a really good example to review thought processes on.
First, lets look at what you 'told' the late position player. Your raised from the sb. This indicates a big hand. The minimum i would put you on is a-k but more likely a big pair. Your flop bet is logical given your pre flop action and reaffirms that read. You now get re-raised. The response here is the crucial element of this hand.
1) What do you know about this player? Have you seen anything to indicate he would bet with call a raise with a-8? would bet with a pair of eights ace kicker?
2) Notice that there is no straight or flush draw on the board. (maybe he would have called with 6-7 but that is a big stretch) You can probably eliminate a bet for value on a draw here.
3)A key question here is what was your motivation to 3-bet the flop. Did you think you had the best hand and if so why? If you raised to get information what did the 4-bet tell you?
4) If you were committed to seeing the turn, i would have just called when he raised you here. You also need to be prepared for the turn. What did you want to see hit and what did you not want to see hit? What would be your reaction. If you were raising to get information, well, you got it. What did you do with it.

If I were you, here is what I would have thought. "ok, i raised pre-flop and lead flop. I got raised by a raggedy board. It's not logical that the late position player would have just called with a big pair (or is it?) so the flop must have helped him. It is possible that he has a draw but not likely. It is possible he called with a middle or low pair and just hit trips. I have two choices: call and lead the turn unless a scare card hits or re-raise here. but i need to be prepared to fold if he 4-bets as he is telling me he can beat my big pair." Given the 4 bet, i strongly would have suspected trips and probably folded.

Random thoughts: You used the term 'weak' in reference to this player. What does that mean.
RE leaks in your game - you indicated in an earlier post that this was a 'fun' game with you and some of your buddies on a bachelor party. If you approached the game that way then you can write it off as a fun night with the friends and not a serious poker game for analysis since you were drinking and whooping it up. My first reaction is that you did not really think this hand through as you were playing it. You saw you had big cards and you followed your first instinct which was to bet and raise. This is pretty common with inexperienced players are those not really in the game to concnetrate. If it is indicative of your regular play, this probably needs some work. Alan Schoonmaker (sp) "the psychology of poker" has some good info on this type of problem in it. hope this helps.

OF course, this is all just my opinion; i could be wrong.
John B

[KJS]

johnb,

Thanks for such a great response. You obviously thought a lot about the hand and my game and I think all your comments were right on. I must correct one thing. All my hands were from 20+ hours of the 6-12 at Mirage. Only about 5 of those hours were when I was drinking and BSing with my buddies before we went out to do bachelor party stuff. The rest were afternoon games where the games were pretty loose but there were many thinking players in the bunch. The hand above was played versus a player that was pretty rational. I did not mean to coin him a weak player when I mentioned his pre-flop play. I only meant to point out that it is a weak hold 'em play to limp first in on the button.

As far as the hand goes, I probably should have folded to the turn bet. I agree that the flop dialogue goes from auto-bet to "i can beat AK" to "I have better than that" to "I can beat that too". Since there were no straights or flushed possible a set was the most likely scenario. I should have noted that and either to the 4 bet or when I did not trip up myself on the turn. Instead I payed him off and lo and behold he showed me a set of fives that turned into quads on the turn.

My three hands are evidence of a leak in my game. That is one of the best things about playing tons of poker in a short period (especially when you are not a pro and don't play live very often, like me). Because I am tight and because I got very few playable hands, I took all my best starters way too far. I pushed one pair like it was the nuts in each of the 3 hands I posted. Despite evidence that my hands were beat, I did not save any bets and in fact lost more than I should have. I was so worried about being dubbed weak-tight in addition to just tight (I easily played 1/4 fewer hands than most of my opponents) that I used aggressive in ways it was not warranted. That is not to say I should not have called down in this hands (although perhaps I shouldn't have) but "hearing" what your opponents are saying to you about your hands and theirs and not listening is bad for your game. As your post showed, I was being told to get out but I didn't. Maybe next time I will. Hopefully that time my opponent will have quads too, and not a missed flush draw /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks again.

KJS

Generally, whenever I have seen the button limp, and I don't know them to be a passive player, my antenna go up with the very distict possibilities that they have AA, and are looking for any action they can get. When he 4 bets you, I'm not inclined to fold, but to check call and payoff on the river, provided I do not spike a K on the end.

[johnb]

KJ: Glad I could help. Your last paragraph rang a loud bell with me. I do not get to play 'live' very often and have the same problem of trying to push my good hands to far sometimes. Also, the type of analysis i did on your hand is easy to do with time to read on the computer but very difficult to do in the 'heat of battle' at the table. It is particularly acute for me when I am in my last day or so on vacation and know i may not have a chance to play for a while. jb