AK: fire another round, or respect the flop call?

[spentrent]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t620)
UTG+1 (t670)
UTG+2 (t640)
MP1 (t740)
MP2 (t1200)
MP3 (t1010)
CO (t775)
Button (t775)
Hero (t785)
BB (t785)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t45</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls t30.

Flop: (t102.50) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t75</font>, UTG calls t75.

Turn: (t252.50) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t100</font>, Hero folds.

[bigredlemon]

I'd raise a little more to t55 to 75 only because low PP still have very good implied odds. Other than that, I think you did what I would do.

[raptor517]

well, this is exactly why i dont like raising it up with AK on level 1. because you can bleed chips too easily, and this is exactly why. i would probably fire at the flop and check fold the turn, if i did raise PF. however, fool around a little bit with limping AK, i think you may like it.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
well, this is exactly why i dont like raising it up with AK on level 1. because you can bleed chips too easily, and this is exactly why. i would probably fire at the flop and check fold the turn, if i did raise PF. however, fool around a little bit with limping AK, i think you may like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

YUCK.

[raptor517]

sigh, people dont even bother attempting doing something that could and would work for them. its sad really. keep that closed mind, im sure it will work for you.

[Bigwig]

I'm with raptor on this one. The out of position stuff needs to be avoided at all costs in the early levels.

[Geo]

Calling is ok i guess but dont get upset when his K4 s0000ted knocks you out. If you are going to raise raise like you have a pair and make it at least 90 at least that way you can have some idea where you are at.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well, this is exactly why i dont like raising it up with AK on level 1. because you can bleed chips too easily, and this is exactly why. i would probably fire at the flop and check fold the turn, if i did raise PF. however, fool around a little bit with limping AK, i think you may like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

YUCK.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to mix up your play sometimes, or you become too predictable. Don't just dismiss this out of course.

[Elektrik]

"Mixing up your play" is unnecessary in any SNG with a $50 or less buy in, as

1) You don't see the same opponents enough
2) They don't care

[raptor517]

mixing up your play is not necessary, but always raising utg with AK is not a good play. period.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
mixing up your play is not necessary, but always raising utg with AK is not a good play. period

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this to me a little more? How does not raising a large amount with the two best non-paired cards, not be a good play? I think the probability of an A or a K hitting the flop is almsot 50%

On that note, you could say the same then about QQ. According to Hilger's book (p. 31), the probability an A or a K flops (and no Q) when you hold QQ is 43%. This, IMO, is why I'm always wary about QQ. JJ is even worse.

[raptor517]

ok first off, you only hit the flip 1/3 of the time with AK, not half, and that makes a big difference. the problem with raising a large amount with AK is when you dont hit, you have to fire, unless you are playing scared. therefore, you can bleed a lot of chips early when you dont need to. when you make a raise up to oh, i duno, 75 on level 1, you will still get called by 55. they can flop a set when you flop a king, etc. i just think out of position with AK sucks. In LP i will raise. but UTG and MP i would think about limping.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
mixing up your play is not necessary, but always raising utg with AK is not a good play. period

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this to me a little more? How does not raising a large amount with the two best non-paired cards, not be a good play? I think the probability of an A or a K hitting the flop is almsot 50%

On that note, you could say the same then about QQ. According to Hilger's book (p. 31), the probability an A or a K flops (and no Q) when you hold QQ is 43%. This, IMO, is why I'm always wary about QQ. JJ is even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was 30 something percent, not close to 50?

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to mix up your play sometimes, or you become too predictable. Don't just dismiss this out of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not worried about being predictable on Level 1.

Let me take this moment to apologize to raptor for not writing more than "YUCK." Later in the game, I'm more likely to mix up my play and limp in EP with a hand like AK.

For instance, there are 5 players and the game has evolved into an extremely aggressive pre-flop game. I'll limp with AK if I expect a raise from a weaker ace behind me.

Or let's say we've got an aggressive BB to my left who chronically determines that my open-limp in the SB means weakness...

In any event, I'm not eliminating "limp AK OOP" from my toolbox outright. But, on level 1 of a SNG, it is my feeling that I get more value raising AK UTG by knocking out the "surprise" hands from the blinds and keeping the "limp with anything" monkeys under control.

[curtains]

I dont like the preflop raise to 45. If I'm going to raise preflop I want to at least make it possible for my opponent to fold.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like the preflop raise to 45. If I'm going to raise preflop I want to at least make it possible for my opponent to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you'll play any two facing a 3xBB raise?

EDIT: Actually, you're right. I forgot that there was a UTG caller. I should have made this 60.

[raptor517]

hmm, ok. i could care less about mixing up my play in a sng. i play too many of them for me to even think about it. raising to 45 is not enough to get the crap hands out anyway. im an advocate of not bleeding chips early. i agree that is definitely + chip ev to raise AK utg. however, this is not a ring game. it is a 1 table tournament. the goal in the early rounds is to conserve chips, not build them. you risk too much raising oop with AK to possibly win maybe 150 chips. steal 1 blind on lvl 4 and you will have made up for it. having 1150 chips is not as big of a difference from 1000 as having 850 would be. its just not worth the risk this early.

also, im curious as to what monetary level this sng is.

[curtains]

Another nice rule to follow: When out of position, ie raising from the blinds, I like to raise one pip more, and assume there are 2 callers. Thus I'd raise to at least 75.

[spentrent]

[ QUOTE ]
hmm, ok. i could care less about mixing up my play in a sng. i play too many of them for me to even think about it. raising to 45 is not enough to get the crap hands out anyway. im an advocate of not bleeding chips early. i agree that is definitely + chip ev to raise AK utg. however, this is not a ring game. it is a 1 table tournament. the goal in the early rounds is to conserve chips, not build them. you risk too much raising oop with AK to possibly win maybe 150 chips. steal 1 blind on lvl 4 and you will have made up for it. having 1150 chips is not as big of a difference from 1000 as having 850 would be. its just not worth the risk this early.

also, im curious as to what monetary level this sng is.

[/ QUOTE ]

The game is a $20+2.

Regarding the raise amount, yeah, I made a mistake. When I made the play I didn't notice -- and one wonders why my ROI decreases when four-tabling /images/graemlins/wink.gif -- the UTG limp.

Regarding early game conservation: why not just fold AK UTG then, if the goal is to conserve chips? If the flop comes A-high or K-high, you bet, and get raised, aren't you going to fold anyway? Or is this precisely the value you see in limping, that an Ax will raise your flop bet?

[curtains]

btw I usually raise here to about 75. But sometimes I will just call from the SB. I will never raise to 60 or less.

[raptor517]

i would generally check raise the flop if i got something like A 8 3. if i got reraised i would let it go because i would be up against a set or 2 pair. otherwise, i am getting paid by A10+. its easy to catch a bad flop with AK, thats why i just risk 15 chips with it. no sense in throwing 70 in there to get 3 callers, miss the flop, and sometimes feel obligated to bet. or throw 70 in there get one caller, fire a decent bet which would be 120+, get called, and be left check folding the turn. lots of bad thing can happen raising with AK utg.

[spentrent]

It just makes me wince to limp with what is most likely the best hand pre-flop, considering that pairs get dealt, what, 1 in 17 hands?

I know it's early, but my gut tells me that even on a missed flop a bet has positive expectation, considering that the odds against a caller improving on the flop are so long... 7.5 to 1 to spike a set or 49 to 1 hit two pair.

I mean, does 22-QQ *really* want to play back at a flop lead from the guy who raised UTG?

[curtains]

spentrent - if every bet on a missed flop had +EV, why don't you just raise preflop with any 2?

[spentrent]

If I did it with any two, I'd be establishing a pattern and killing my EV. The positive expectation comes from the fact that I don't do it with any two.

[curtains]

Yes because these guys at the $22 sit and gos are detecting patterns in your play. I'm pretty sure you could get away with it 1-2 times per tournament without detection.

(Probably whatever point Im trying to make now makes no sense)

[spentrent]

Come on man an invertebrate would detect the guy on auto-raise.

[curtains]

??? Because you raise with 72o one hand during a tournament, someone at the table is going to realize this?

[spentrent]

No, if I raise UTG every time somebody's catching on.

[curtains]

I never said to raise UTG every time. But anyway my point made no sense.