protecting your hand, by getting your opponent to raise.

[hypermegachi]

I have no idea if this is + or - EV, but I figured many people may have come across this thought.

Let's say 1 or 2 EP players limp, and you limp as well with 88 or some similar hand in MP. The button raises, blinds fold, and everyone calls.

Flop comes and gives you a marginal holding, so with 88 the flop would be something like 25T. Or if you had AJ the flop is like 5JK.

Both the early people check. But now you bet, hoping the preflop raiser will raise it, driving out the 2 people early position.

Is this type of tactic profitable? Or is it just checking the better player? Seems like if you bet, raiser raises, it becomes heads up and you end up calling down. But if you check, PFR bets, both limpers call, and now you have odds to call to to see the turn...

Bleh I'm rambling, anyone get my point?

[jdl22]

I'm pretty sure this is covered in SSH. Basically it's a good strategy, sometimes you want to wait until the turn though.

[emonrad87]

It can be a good strategy for a couple of reasons. For one, your hand could be the best hand on the flop, so betting is good. Two, say the two limpers have a total 20% chance to win the pot, you have 35% chance, and the PFR has a 55% chance to win. By knocking out the limpers in this way, the two of you will split the equity of the limpers (not necessarily equally), so you will gain by forcing them out.

[turnipmonster]

I do this all the time fwiw. often times from the big blind the person that openraised helps you protect your hand. I think schneids referred to him as your "ally" in and old post or something.

in fact, barring hand protection scenarios I think I would check the flop 100% of the time first to act in 6 max.

[hypermegachi]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure this is covered in SSH. Basically it's a good strategy, sometimes you want to wait until the turn though.

[/ QUOTE ]
the difference between the scenario i set up and most of SSH scenarios, is i am NOT the one raising.

most of the hand protection in SSH involves someone on your right betting, so you can raise, driving out the people after you.

in my scenario, you bet first, then your opponent raises, driving off the people.

so in a sense it's reverse hand protection.

[QTip]

this is covered in SSHE, and I pull it off all the time. You bet out hoping the PF raiser to your left raises and thins the field. This would be especially likely if you were something like MP3 or the CO and the PF raiser was the button.

[hypermegachi]

[ QUOTE ]
this is covered in SSHE, and I pull it off all the time. You bet out hoping the PF raiser to your left raises and thins the field. This would be especially likely if you were something like MP3 or the CO and the PF raiser was the button.

[/ QUOTE ]
interesting...guess i missed it. gotta read it over yet again!

[QTip]

If I had it here, I'd get you the page number...it's in there though...maybe in one of the hand quizzes...

[bernie]

Depends on the player who is raising you. If he's very LAGgy, you're doing it to get it HU so you can call him down since there is a decent chance you're hand is better.

Kind of the same thing if it's an opponent who will raise overcards on a low flop and you have a mid/small pair.

[ QUOTE ]
But if you check, PFR bets, both limpers call, and now you have odds to call to to see the turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on your draw, doesn't it? Sometimes you will have enough players in to check, then raise the 3 other players. Sometimes you will only just check and call. Player knowledge helps in these situations.

This related to that KQo post?

b

[bernie]

What's really fun is to watch opponents bet into a sure raise with a draw that they want players in with. So they bet into the raiser, get raised, everyone folds to the drawing guy. There goes his implied odds for the hand.

b

[hypermegachi]

[ QUOTE ]

This related to that KQo post?

[/ QUOTE ]
hehe not at all...in the KQo post hero was in position the entire time. this situation hero is sandwiched between players.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
in the KQo post hero was in position the entire time. this situation hero is sandwiched between players

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking about the post with KQo in the BB with the aggressor being on his left. He flops mid pair.

Where are you sandwiched in this hand? The PFR is on your direct left.

b

[hypermegachi]

[ QUOTE ]

I was thinking about the post with KQo in the BB with the aggressor being on his left. He flops mid pair.

Where are you sandwiched in this hand? The PFR is on your direct left.

b

[/ QUOTE ]
yep you're right. i just remembered hero closing action on every street.

[QTip]

Didn't have a chance to look in SSHE; however, I did happen upon this topic this morning in TOP on pages 139 and 140

[jailhousejoe]

its a well known tactic.. just as that raiser will be hoping you bet, so he can raise and force the other out of the pot too.

You need to give you players a lot of credit for this to be reliable.. if i sit at a table of local pro's waiting for the tourists to come in, I'm likely to put this kind of thing to my advantage. It works less often in small stakes and (so i'm told) high-stakes. The more reliable it is as a tacic at your table, the more +EV it is.