I hate middle pocket pairs

[AtticusFinch]

JJ, TT, 99 --- I absolutely hate these hands (Except on the bubble. Then I love them.) I never seem to know how to play them properly. Honestly, I usually raise, but breathe a sigh of relief if I just collect the blinds.

Example: 50 blinds, TsTc in MP with 800 chips, I make it 200 to go. Button calls, everyone else folds.

Flop is Js 4s 2c. Hero????

I checked and folded to his pot-sized bet. He showed me his A-4 of hearts.

I'm honestly considering just pushing PF whenever I get one of these from now on. Either that or just limp-calling and going for trips.

[Scuba Chuck]

Finch, I think this is the type of hand that defines your play. SnG's, remember, are about middle and bubble play. I think you can lump these hands in with AQ. Depending on the blinds, I limp or fold, unless I have position. Then I might fool around a little.

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
Example: 50 blinds, TsTc in MP with 800 chips, I make it 200 to go. Button calls, everyone else folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what if the button re-raises? Assume he has AK and push back? Or call and then not know how to proceed when a J flops? Then what do you do? I think 200 MP is way too much for a hand like TT that will just get you in to trouble playing out of position.

Limp. Hope for a set or unders.

[Pepsquad]

I agree. 1010 and JJ are so easy to get married to pre-flop. The key to playing these hands is so situational, that's what is driving you crazy. There's no standard for these hands. Typically, I'm more conservative pre-flop with these hands than most people - and more aggressive post-flop with them than most people. Just remember, when you hold 1010, 40% of the time the flop will come with at least one overcard. Usually I limp and the number of opponents to see the flop (and who these opponents are) then dictates my play.

[wudrow]

lately i have changed my play on these, and even lower pocket pair sometimes. I rarely raise with middle to lower PP and will call a raise if up to 4x BB. If only 3-4 players left in hand, i asses the players and will usually bet 1/2 the pot. Since playing this way, i have taken pots here 60% to 70% of time. Sometimes i will get 1 caller and most of the time it is checked throught he river and over 50% of the time i will take the pot.

[Karak567]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t1350)
SB (t3520)
BB (t940)
Hero (t1470)
UTG+1 (t2390)
MP1 (t500)
MP2 (t1230)
MP3 (t740)
CO (t1360)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero calls t20, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t80) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t60</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t120</font>, CO folds, SB calls t60.

Turn: (t320) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, SB calls t300.

River: (t920) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t300</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1220

[AtticusFinch]

To be clear, with TT or 99, I often raise, but I'm never happy about it. It's just what the conventional wisdom says to do. I'm thinking about limping with them much more often, though. Maybe calling small raises. I'll be looking for an overpair or a set.

With JJ I feel a little better raising, but still not good. I'd honestly rather take down the blinds PF with any of these, or just push, because these hands are so damned hard to play post flop in no-limit. (In limit they're much easier.)

[Karak567]

Early on (levels 1-3) I limp with 99-JJ... level 4+ it's an open raise for me.

[SuitedSixes]

So what you're saying is, you are willing to invest 1/4 of your stack in a situation that you are never comfortable with just because "conventional wisdom" dictates it? I don't think "conventional wisdom" plays SNGs at Party Poker.

[raptor517]

im curious as to why you thought it was necessary to raise the flop? thats a check fold flop.

[raptor517]

these i definitely wouldnt put right there with AQ, AQ is complete trash in my mind. i play those medium pairs for set value. i would limp utg with them for the most part, and if i was on the button, i would probably throw out a decent 3x BB raise and fire at pretty much any flop with 1 or less overcards. these are definitely tricky hands to play, and i definitely think they contribute greatly to successful sng play.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
conventional wisdom says to do

[/ QUOTE ]

This sort of wisdom doesn't seem to hold too much water in SNG play. It holds some, but much more important IMHO is the unique blind structure/position/stack/players in determining what to do with a marginal but perhaps 'best' and/or 'good' hand.

Yugoslav

[Karak567]

[ QUOTE ]
im curious as to why you thought it was necessary to raise the flop? thats a check fold flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Had a good read on him. He bluffed a lot with overcards and was folding to re-raises. I thought my PP was good until the ace hit.

He didn't fold there and I bit it.

[bigredlemon]

I usually fold 99 early, and min-raise in middle/late position. This will usually kick out people with something like 36o that might hit two pair and you wouldn't see it coming. On the flop, fold if there's overcards and no set if it's likely that someone has a higher pair.

[Karak567]

I'll limp with ANY pocket pair in the early levels, because at the 5.50 games (where I play, will probably be moving up tomorrow) if your set hits, it's freaking pay day (unless you get sucked out on).

Late levels I'll muck 66 and lower out of early position and raise 77 and above. Will limp with 66 and lower out of late.

[Merlyn22]

[ QUOTE ]
JJ, TT, 99 --- I absolutely hate these hands (Except on the bubble. Then I love them.) I never seem to know how to play them properly. Honestly, I usually raise, but breathe a sigh of relief if I just collect the blinds.

Example: 50 blinds, TsTc in MP with 800 chips, I make it 200 to go. Button calls, everyone else folds.

Flop is Js 4s 2c. Hero????

I checked and folded to his pot-sized bet. He showed me his A-4 of hearts.

I'm honestly considering just pushing PF whenever I get one of these from now on. Either that or just limp-calling and going for trips.

[/ QUOTE ]
I play 99,10 10, and JJ all a little differently.
Levels 1 and 2 : 99 -limp from any position and play for set value or overpair in shorthanded pot - only raise if in late position and it's been folded around to me (which doesen't happen very often)
1010 - limp in early position raise in late position
JJ - raise in any position except maybe UTG. These hands are definately easier to play with position, but you don't always have that luxury. When I raise with JJ or even 10 10, the only overcard I'm really concerned about is an ace. That's the card that will most likely kill your hand, but not always. Kings and especially Queens should not be nearly as scary. If overcards come and I'm first to act, I'll probably throw out about 1/2-2/3 pot bet and slow down if I get played with. If it's checked to me, I'll do the same. If I get raised when overcards on the flop, I fold.
Middle levels (usually 6-7 handed) I'll usually raise with all three from any position. In the middle stages of the tourney if i raise with one of these hands and get called the flop play becomes more player and situation dependent. In later stages, blinds are so high I'm usually pushing these hands PF.

[SuitedSixes]

[ QUOTE ]
When I raise with JJ or even 10 10, the only overcard I'm really concerned about is an ace. That's the card that will most likely kill your hand, but not always. Kings and especially Queens should not be nearly as scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why aren't Kings and Queens scary? This baffles me.

[Merlyn22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I raise with JJ or even 10 10, the only overcard I'm really concerned about is an ace. That's the card that will most likely kill your hand, but not always. Kings and especially Queens should not be nearly as scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why aren't Kings and Queens scary? This baffles me.

[/ QUOTE ]Because the hands my opponents usually call raises with will contain an Ace way more than a king or a queen. A king will make me proceed cautiously but a queen high flop is usually not scary at all (until somebody shows alot of strength)

[Bigwig]

I don't know if limping here is a good move. Just winning the blinds helps your stack, and warrants a raise. I'dve pushed this flop, BTW.

[Phil Van Sexton]

At the 25/50 blind, this is a tough hand. If you raise, you are likely to be called. Now you have built a big pot. You basically have to decide between pushing and folding on the flop; you have no other options.

At levels 1 and 2, you can raise pre-flop to limit the field and still have chips left to play on the later streets. On levels 4+, it's a clear push.

On level 3, I like limping from EP or MP. If folded to me on the button or SB, I'd raise, but 200 is too much. 150 is better.

If you limp, you don't have to play this just for set value. By limping, the pot stays small and you have room to bet even when an overcard flops.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

If you limp, you don't have to play this just for set value. By limping, the pot stays small and you have room to bet even when an overcard flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's brilliant, Phil. I've been trying to absorb Harrington's point about not building a big pot when you may have a tough decision to make. This is yet another demonstration of that notion.