Hate flopping 2-pair in O8

[Alchemist]

I consider myself fairly solid at Omaha/8. I usually play $.50/$1 to $2/4 on PokerStars and am often the tightest one at the table. I feel one of my weakest points is playing too many hands out of the small blind.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Omaha/8 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP2 calls, Button calls.

I flop two pair and 2nd nut flush draw. I bet mostly to see what my opponents do, which I think is a mistake since I'm out of position and there are two low cards on the board so they're likely to call anyway.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

Third low card hits. I planned on calling a single bet since I think my high is still good, but I'll only be able to win half the pot. I thought for a while after the raise and decide to fold, worried about possible straight/straight draws.

River: (7.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
MP2 has As 2c 7d 4s (Low: 8, 6, 4, 2, A | High: one pair, aces).
Button has 3s 5c 2d Qs (Low: 8, 6, 3, 2, A | High: high card, ace).
Outcome: MP2 wins 4.75 BB. Button wins 4.75 BB.

I would have won high but MP2 also had the nut flush draw and a gutshot 8-high straight draw.</font>
I suspect the advice I'll get is to just fold these hands, but when it comes to flopping 2-pair with no redraws except for the full house, is it best to just let them go when someone bets into you?

[Yads]

Fold PF. After the flop, looks ok, I would check fold without the flush draw, but you do have a 2nd nut flush draw against 4 opponents so betting here is ok. Turn is good. You're playing for half of the pot and you'll need to hit your full house or flush to win it. Pot is small fold is good.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

you're getting 6.5-2, or 3.25-1, on your turn call with action still behind you. however, its actually 1.625-1 because you're only playing for half the pot. your mid two pair probably isn't that good anyways right now, though you have potentially 13 outs to win the high, though none of your high draws are to the nuts. even if all 13 outs are clean you're still not getting break-even odds for the call and it might get raised behind you. folding seems prudent here. i would have just mucked preflop though i'm no O8 expert.

[Moneyline]

Preflop: Even though you're getting 7: 1, I don't think your hand is strong enough to complete with. The only positive features of your hand is a 2nd nut flush draw and middle straight possibilities with the 98. As you probably know, middle straight cards are bad because the times you do make your straight you'll frequently either be splitting the pot with a low or your hand will not be the nuts. I don't think the (small) positive features of this hand outweigh the (strong) negative features.

Flop: This is a pretty good flop. If the other players are tight, I would probably bet too. The ace counterfeits most good low draws, and tight players are far less likely to play hands containg a 9 or an 8 for a better 2 pair, or even 67 or JT for straight draws. A bet might pick up the pot right here. However, there are a lot of turn and river cards that can ruin your hand. So if your opponents are aggressive I'd be more inclined to just check and fold because you'll probably be facing some raises down the road and you won't have much idea of where you stand.

Turn: I think you have to fold here. You could easily get caught for 4 turn bets drawing to only 4 outs (and you won't even be sure if those outs are good or not). EDIT: I forgot that you also have the 2nd nut flush redraw, but that has the same problem as catching an 8 or 9 because you won't know if you're good if you hit it.

IMO flopping top 2 pair is a lot better than flopping bottom 2... which is one of the reasons I prefer high cards to middle cards. I think the problem with this hand is pre-flop, because even a good flop like this one turned out to be trouble for you.

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the problem with this hand is pre-flop, because even a good flop like this one turned out to be trouble for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo, if you had folded this garbage pre flop, you don't get yourself in these extremely marginal situations.

[Alchemist]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the problem with this hand is pre-flop, because even a good flop like this one turned out to be trouble for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo, if you had folded this garbage pre flop, you don't get yourself in these extremely marginal situations.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed 100%. Like I said, it's (completing the SB with crappy hands) a hole in my game I'm trying to fill /images/graemlins/smile.gif. The upshot was how to play it once you've seen the flop--as if from an unraised BB and determining much value two pair is.
I appreciate the responses...I'll likely have some more scenarios soon.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
you're getting 6.5-2, or 3.25-1, on your turn call with action still behind you. however, its actually 1.625-1 because you're only playing for half the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is incorrect, although a common mistake.

There are 6.5 BBs in the pot right now, and if you call you will put another 2 BBs in, making 8.5 BBs total. For simplicity, assume MP folds and both you and your opponent check this down and you win half the pot. Now you get back half the 8.5 or 4.25 BB, but of course 2 BBs of that was already yours meaning you get a net positive of 4.25 - 2 = 2.25 in profit. So you've just risked 2 BBs to win 2.25 BB or odds of 1.125 to 1.

Basically, you did not account for the fact that you don't get the full amount of your called $ back since you split.

A simpler rule of thumb is to assume outs for half the pot are worth ~40%, not 50%, because of this.

--Greg

**This informational tidbit was brough to you courtesy of Buzz, the godfather of O8, who has shared this in the past.** /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Chris Daddy Cool]

d'oh i forgot about that. but yea, i knew it wasn't a good spot to be in. at least that counts for something hehe.

[Yads]

[ QUOTE ]
A simpler rule of thumb is to assume outs for half the pot are worth ~40%, not 50%, because of this.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's brilliant, never thought of it this way before. Thanks greg, I mean Buzz /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[chaos]

I would fold preflop. 7s, 8s, and 9s are the worst cards to start with. You have two fo them. A 28 for low is pretty worthless. You do not have much of a hand.

All two-pair hands are not created equal. Top two pair can be a playable hand in some situations. Top and bottom pair, or bottom two pair are not usually playable. You have flopped bottom two pair. Your opponents are likely to have at least a pair of Aces for high. The chances of 9s up 8s being the best high hand at the showdown is pretty small. Once the third low comes you are likely only playing for half the pot with a weak hand.

The object of a split-pot game is to scoop the pot. Wait for a hand that has a better chance to scoop. Do not bleed offf bets making weak calls with marginal and sub-marginal hands.

[BradleyT]

Let's break your hand down into two card hands (since we have to use two from our hand at showdown).

K/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
K/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/spade.gif
K/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif

9/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
9/images/graemlins/club.gif2/images/graemlins/spade.gif

8/images/graemlins/heart.gif2/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Which of those 6 two card hands will make a probable winner? I don't see any hands that aren't as trashy as circa '85 Madonna.