5/10 6max (4 handed) blind defense. Reasonable? [Archive]

JudoGirl

02-14-2005, 12:11 PM

Sometimes I google people's names to see what I find. In this case, SB's name hit in 2+2 forums so figured TAG who would try to steal if folded around.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Joe826

02-14-2005, 12:37 PM

EDIT: apparently hero completed straight. nice job /images/graemlins/grin.gif. thx bakku.

bakku

02-14-2005, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually raise the flop in this situation. Waiting to check/raise the turn is ok too though. When SB check/raises you on the turn I can't see any good reason to 3-bet. Your hand has no showdown value so taking a free showdown is worthless, and even though you have a sweet draw you're still an underdog to hit it with one card to come. SB has shown a good amount of strength thus far, so I highly doubt you're getting a fold here. Additionally, it could very likely get capped. The river raise is chip spewing IMO. No way you're getting a fold 1 in 5 times here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you should reread the hand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Hero did fine.

kelvin474

02-14-2005, 12:44 PM

Also, you can't checkraise the turn when he's the SB and your the BB. I think raiseing the flop is best as it gives you a better chance of folding him out when he is beating you but can't know it, like when he has 2 overcards and you miss. Calling the flop is still superior to folding, since you have 5:1 immediately and the straight will win HU almost all the time.

mikeyKay

02-14-2005, 12:56 PM

i think its completely reasonable. a raise from the SB doesnt mean much. you have position the whole hand, and are getting 3:1 on the preflop call.

-mike

MAxx

02-14-2005, 01:38 PM

as much as i dont like folding to sb steals, i would have folded the 7-5s. i will defend a 76s or a 86s. that's just my personal cutoff. i suppose a 7-5 is reasonable though.

i like a flop raise. if sb misses and was on a steal,
you will often get him to fold to your flop raise or your subsequent turn lead and many other times you will hit your double gut.

wahooriver

02-14-2005, 01:48 PM

I like everything about this hand. You clearly had reason to invest .5 BB (3-1 pot odds).

Many would raise on the flop - I tend to remain conservative here. If a high card comes on the turn, I am likely to fold.

You had good pot odds at this point with the double gut shot. When you hit it - you value bet nicely.

David BB

02-14-2005, 01:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Many would raise on the flop - I tend to remain conservative here. If a high card comes on the turn, I am likely to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you fold?

JudoGirl

02-14-2005, 02:34 PM

Thanks for the replies...against 2 overcards I am a 5:3 dog, but against a higher pair I am a 5:1 dog. I gave a lot more weight to SB having 2 higher cards because of the steal situation...so I think the 3:1 odds make this a reasonable call, but probably marginally so...also, I think the flop raise was probably a better move as a couple people here stated.

As it turns out SB, flipped over AA and the insults started:

2+2er: nice call, you SUCK
2+2er: i had AA, you are the captain of terrible.
2+2er: there is no way you can win money
me: but they were suited

Grisgra

02-14-2005, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2+2er: nice call, you SUCK
2+2er: i had AA, you are the captain of terrible.
2+2er: there is no way you can win money
me: but they were suited

[/ QUOTE ]

hee -- I use that one too. But spell it "sooted" of course /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Shuts them up pretty fast, usually.

Apparently he would have been much happier if you had just folded the BB and he had just picked up the blinds.

witeknite

02-14-2005, 02:55 PM

I'd be sure to PM the person telling him "Bad Trout!" Anyone from here should know better than to be a table coach.

WiteKnite

Jeff W

02-14-2005, 03:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]

2+2er: nice call, you SUCK
2+2er: i had AA, you are the captain of terrible.
2+2er: there is no way you can win money
me: but they were suited

[/ QUOTE ]

Please report the 2+2er to Party/Empire support for being abusive in chat. Party will revoke their chat because they didn't learn how to play nice with others in grade school. There is no excuse for their behavior.

Post their 2+2 alias so that they will be publicly shamed for their indiscretion.

Nate tha' Great

02-14-2005, 03:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
as much as i dont like folding to sb steals, i would have folded the 7-5s. i will defend a 76s or a 86s. that's just my personal cutoff. i suppose a 7-5 is reasonable though.

i like a flop raise. if sb misses and was on a steal,
you will often get him to fold to your flop raise or your subsequent turn lead and many other times you will hit your double gut.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding 75s would be a huge mistake in position here.

Rubeskies

02-14-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hee -- I use that one too. But spell it "sooted" of course /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the "correct" spelling os s00ted!!

JudoGirl

02-14-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Please report the 2+2er to Party/Empire support for being abusive in chat. Party will revoke their chat because they didn't learn how to play nice with others in grade school. There is no excuse for their behavior.

Post their 2+2 alias so that they will be publicly shamed for their indiscretion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy jesus, report them to empire support? C'mon, that's nuts. If I did that kind of stuff I'd never have time to play poker...and besides I personally have fun with those kinds of comments anyway...

And I won't out the person here either. After a few hands passed and I knew the person was 2+2 but she didn't know it about me, I broke one of my rules and made a comment

(paraphrasing):
Me: "you should post that hand on the forum and show everybody how terrible judo is"
Her: "what forum?".
Me: "nevermind"
Her: "brown trout?".
Me: "lol"
Her: "I'm sure they don't teach you to play 57 there"
Her: "reponse would be fold that PF"
Me: "and you should know not to insult the fish"
Her: "i know, hah. it was late, and i was mad"
Her: "but you are the queen of the river i must say" (See my AQ hand posted today--I hit A on river, so this was comment in reference to that hand).

Teresa

Jeff W

02-14-2005, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Holy jesus, report them to empire support? C'mon, that's nuts. If I did that kind of stuff I'd never have time to play poker...and besides I personally have fun with those kinds of comments anyway...

[/ QUOTE ]

It only takes 2 minutes to report them to support. If they are criticizing you for bad play, then imagine what they are doing to true suck-out artists.

Players like the 2+2er you mentioned are a menace to game quality because they encourage other players to play correctly. It is our duty to protect the games we play in.

Edit: The 2+2er in question is wrong about your play. 75s is more than enough hand to play HU w/ position getting 3:1 odds.

Grisgra

02-14-2005, 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Players like the 2+2er you mentioned are a menace to game quality because they encourage other players to play correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong on a few counts . . .

1) The 2+2er was saying that she made a mistake folding 75s in the BB to a open-raise from the SB. As you agree, the 2+2er was super-wrong. (Must just visit OOT).

2) I have a sense that part of the reason fish chase to the river is the sense of vindication they get when they hit and break a better hand. Someone ranting and raving about how they misplayed it has to just make them feel better. I think that the average fish is MORE likely to make the same play again, not less, after being yelled at! This ain't knockin' the aquarium, this is throwing in fish food.

Jeff W

02-14-2005, 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2) I have a sense that part of the reason fish chase to the river is the sense of vindication they get when they hit and break a better hand. Someone ranting and raving about how they misplayed it has to just make them feel better. I think that the average fish is MORE likely to make the same play again, not less, after being yelled at! This ain't knockin' the aquarium, this is throwing in fish food.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't prove you wrong, but I believe that berating bad players encourages them to play better and in my experience they often leave the table when they're abused.

Most of the bad players at the $5/$10 level are trying to have a good time. Many aren't trying to play well, and I don't think we should wake the sleeping giant.

If you were playing blackjack, would you keep playing if the dealer called you an a[/i]sshole for hitting on a 20 and catching the miracle 21? Would you make foolish plays when you know you're being watched and judged?

Grisgra

02-14-2005, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would you make foolish plays when you know you're being watched and judged?

[/ QUOTE ]

. . . and winning? /images/graemlins/smile.gif I'd be more likely to, especially if I wasn't convinced I was being foolish.

Now, berating a bad player after taking a pot from him because his 32o got counterfeited on the river, or whatnot, that's HORRIBLE. I completely agree. But I don't think that berating a fish that's just sucked out on you does anything to change the fish's behavior, unless you're so rude that he leaves the table.

I'm not saying it's a good thing -- I try to avoid it, limiting myself to a painful "wow" or "yikes" or whatever -- but I don't think berating players who just beat you out of a pot does anything to change their behavior, unless you're REALLY an [censored].

helpmeout

02-14-2005, 06:47 PM

I dont see why you need to show that you are a 2+2er, I mean not all 2+2ers are good players, alot of them just think they are good(being a 2+2er doesnt magically make you a good player).

I personally just let them insult me and hope they go on tilt. You want to say stuff like "I just play for fun" or "can I get a copy of your book".

Tough beats like that can put a struggling 2+2er on tilt, or even better they leave the table.

Dont need to prove to them that you dont suck, it doesnt matter.

SCfuji

02-14-2005, 07:13 PM

fnicei scatchh

Your Mom

02-15-2005, 12:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I google people's names to see what I find. In this case, SB's name hit in 2+2 forums so figured TAG who would try to steal if folded around.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

You played it fine. Preflop call is a must.

MAxx

02-15-2005, 01:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as much as i dont like folding to sb steals, i would have folded the 7-5s. i will defend a 76s or a 86s. that's just my personal cutoff. i suppose a 7-5 is reasonable though.

i like a flop raise. if sb misses and was on a steal,
you will often get him to fold to your flop raise or your subsequent turn lead and many other times you will hit your double gut.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding 75s would be a huge mistake in position here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate (or anyone else)please explain why folding a 7-5s is a huge mistake here. It's not that I don't believe you, of course, I just am curious why it is a must play. I see that you are getting 3-1 here and the SB's range of raising hands is very wide. Having position is nice, I see that too. I guess I am not connecting all the dots. How do you determine that it is -EV to fold here?

Jeff W

02-15-2005, 01:20 AM

It's pretty simple. You have to have <25% equity to fold this. Most opponents have a wide enough SB open raising range that you will show a profit by calling.

Consider this Pokerstove simulation:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
37.7631 % [ 00.37 00.01 ] { 75s }
62.2369 % [ 00.62 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q7s, JTs-J7s, T9s-T7s, 98s-97s, 87s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o }

That is a hot&cold simulation. Your positional advantage adds to your equity in actual play.

helpmeout

02-15-2005, 05:58 AM

Position is worth a lot HU.

75s although a weak hand it can connect to a lot of flops.

If it was against a button steal I'd fold because being out of position sucks.

What usually happens is he autobets the flop, say you connect to the flop with as little as a gutshot you can raise and take a freecard or make him fold the turn most times.

If you flop a big hand you can watch him bet it for you and can raise the river if you like. He cant take a freecard because you have position.

A lot of factors come into what you defend with here. You cant just say ok 75s is good 74s isnt. It depends on who you are against.

kiddo

02-15-2005, 12:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Many would raise on the flop - I tend to remain conservative here. If a high card comes on the turn, I am likely to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

No no, the only reason not raising this flop is because he will more likely fold if u raise turn. Openended straight and 3 flushcards, this is superstrong. He will normally not be hit by a flop like this, raise is a must.

I would defend 75 against any stealreaise, also from CO, unless they were rocks. Against SB raise I would call with worse, like 64s and 54s and J8o. A pair is often enough.