What's the consensus on limping UTG with AK early in a tourney?

[Bigwig]

We all know the situation. You get AK UTG early in an SNG, raise to 3-4BB, and get two-four callers with everything from 33 to JTs. The flop misses you two out of three times, or when it hits an A or K, it may often have another broadway card, which may or may not mean squat, but could make you nervous as you get called down or reraised on your flop bet.

And since the blinds themselves aren't worth winning at this point, what's your thoughts on simply limping, seeing the ensuing action, and maybe calling a reasonable raise?

Discuss.

[Sluss]

I've been moving back and forth with this lately. Sometimes I'll limp and play the flop, turn and river slow, which feels very weak.

I've also tried raising to t100 watching three people call wiffing the flop and folding to action. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Really, I think that UTG limping is the best option. Especially if you have that jackass that will min raise in MP. Then you can bang him all-in and pick up a pretty good pot, or even more than double up when he calls with his Q 10. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ChrisV]

I don't like it because it makes it too hard to extract a decent amount when you hit the jackpot - say flopping an ace against AT. There's so little in the pot on the flop that you can't bet very big.

That said, it's not going to be a big deal if you limp it. I firmly believe I could still beat the $200's if I folded every AK preflop on levels 1 and 2. In fact, I think my win rate would barely register any change.

[raptor517]

i think UTG limping with AK is by FAR the best way to play the hand. limp calling a raise is perfectly acceptable.

[curtains]

Saying that it's by FAR the best way to play the hand is a bit much. I have limped before, but I like to raise with it.

[raptor517]

well, my method of playing early is super tight. i think most people waste way too many chips early with AK, and can get trapped very easily having second best. therefore, i do like just limping utg with it, and am able to get away from it very cheaply if i miss, and win a decent pot if i get a good flop. i would like to hear other comments on this. it may not be by FAR the best play, but for my style, it works well and i like it.

[swarm]

I prefer raising with it, reason you will get callers with dominated hands and will make more money. It also gives you a better read on who you are in the pot with.

My fear with limping is getting pots with 6-7 limpers going to the flop. You have no clue what people will limp with. You could easily hit TPTK but will be behind as the guy that you let limp in with J3suited hit his bottom 2 pair.

Now if you are in a game where there is a manical raiser of every pot (no matter what the hand) or an aggressive late position/button raiser then I can see limping as the play as the pot will still be raised and your hand will be disguised.

I still prefer raising, it amazes me what people will call large raises with...

[raptor517]

i suppose the reasons you mentioned give me reason NOT to raise. i dont want people in there with crap when i make it 60 utg pre flop, flop all low cards, and have to fire at the pot. to make a legit pot bet i have to make it around 100. if i get called and dont improve on the turn, then what? fire again? check fold? check folding leaves you with ~840 chips assuming you have yet to play a hand. not to mention the fact that you could have just been outplayed by AQ who took your turn check as a sign of extreme weakness, and by all means were correct.

i guess playing 1 to 2 tables i would prefer raising, as i can try to get a decent read on my opponents and actually try to outplay them. i 8 table, so limping and getting away from AK cheaply is a perfectly acceptable, and probably +ev play for me. i just like to risk as few chips as possible in the early rounds. you cant win the tourney early, you can only lose.

[kurto]

I think limping is weak. I don't understand people arguing to limp with a premium hand.

You want to raise because (1) you have a good hand... get some value out of it. (2) You want to narrow the field so that when the flop comes A-3-5, you didn't let the guy in the BB a free look with his 2-4os or the guy with the A3 a cheap flop.

How many times do you win a hand that you limp in with that you know you would have folded preflop if anyone raised?

I've lost more hands then I care to remember in my early days because I didn't raise preflop.

The only time I'm limping with AK is if I have it in the BB, 5-6 people have already limped before me AND I know I'm not going to get anyone out with a raise AND I'm going to be playing it out of position.

[tdarko]

the only way i limp with this hand is if i am fairly sure someone will raise the pot after me. if the table is tight or passive and likes to limp i will raise 5X the BB, i mean with this hand why would you want to take a chance of being in a community pot especially if you only get a piece?

[tdarko]

[ QUOTE ]
I think limping is weak. I don't understand people arguing to limp with a premium hand.

You want to raise because (1) you have a good hand... get some value out of it. (2) You want to narrow the field so that when the flop comes A-3-5, you didn't let the guy in the BB a free look with his 2-4os or the guy with the A3 a cheap flop.

How many times do you win a hand that you limp in with that you know you would have folded preflop if anyone raised?

I've lost more hands then I care to remember in my early days because I didn't raise preflop.

The only time I'm limping with AK is if I have it in the BB, 5-6 people have already limped before me AND I know I'm not going to get anyone out with a raise AND I'm going to be playing it out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]
word.

[curtains]

You dont have to fire at the pot every time you missed just because you raised preflop.

[raptor517]

so you say you would raise to 60, get action, and not fire at a 10 high flop? then you are just throwing away 60 chips to hit 1/3rd of the time. apparently im not much of a player in that i think conserving chips early is important. i guess you people play AQ utg then too eh?

[kurto]

"so you say you would raise to 60, get action, and not fire at a 10 high flop?" What's 'get action'? If I have 1 or 2 callers, I'm firing at the pot. If I have 6 callers, I'm checking.

"then you are just throwing away 60 chips to hit 1/3rd of the time." Are looking at one hand? You're raising preflop to (1) narrow the field and (2) to get value out of the 1/3 times you hit (3) possibly win the pot right there.

[tdarko]

obviously you are more of a player than most if you are on this site and trying to get better...with that said:

i said i would raise 5X the BB ( i am assuming you are starting at 10/20) to 100, i know online players tend to call bigger raises thats why i would make it 100 to go. i understand that you can't waste chips early on and thats why in the first 2-3 levels (no money in the pot) you should be a little tighter but if you have a premium hand and you cant get your money in there then there is something wrong. the blinds are so small that if you make it a 100 to go and get a caller and then if you make a 150$ stab with a contination bet and get raised the rest of your chips then letting it go doesnt cripple you. blinds are still only 2% of your stack (assuming you start with 1000).
i am not afraid to lose a little bit of my stack early on with a top 5 hand b/c blinds are nothing, now i do have a problem with losing chips early on with a trap hand or garbage.

[raptor517]

sigh. do i really want to get into this? not really, but ok. first off, feel free not to condescend me by talking like im an idiot, i assure you, that i am not. second off, i made the same post about limping AA and KK utg, and again, i get flamed for that because im 'not getting value' out of the hand.

well, i dont think its getting value out of your hand when you get trapped with second best. there are about, oh, i duno, 27,475,218 ways this can happen. i dont put myself in difficult situations in sngs, ever. its unnecessary. if you dont even play AK in the first 2 levels i would imagine your roi would not decrease 1/2 of 1 percent.

[GauchoFish]

i think call reraising here is a poor move, see ICM....even if you double up here your stack is not worth it considering the liklihood of getting snapped by that Q 10, or more likely 77.

IMHO, this is a bad move...limping is the best option and calling any raises up to 100 or so. Its simply not worth it to me to commit much of my stack here, UTG w/ a semi-speculative hand.

WD

[rohjoh]

I do not think you can generalize about AK early without mention which buy in level you are playing. For example when playing at the $216 level on PP, and I see someone limp UTG, I treat that as a raise. A player at this level would not limp UTG without a very solid hand. Therefore if I am playing at the $216 level I will limp, and expect it to get as much respect as if I were to raise.

If I am playing a $55 on the other hand I do not think UTG limps are respected in the same way that they are in a $216. I therefore tend to raise, and then check fold if I miss the flop. Quite often I am called in the $55's by hands that I dominate. When I hit the flop, I will take down a nice size pot. Players calling with hands like A10 or KQ or KJ.

Also depends on what kind of read you have on your opponents at the table, but since it is early, and I assume you are playing more than one table at a time, I do not think that is as relevant as the buy in level you are playing.

[raptor517]

thankyou for an excellent post. as of now im 8 tabling the 109s on party and empire. therefore i cant be bothered with trying to get a read on the opposition.

[kurto]

Wow, where did that come from?

"first off, feel free not to condescend me by talking like im an idiot," I was not condescending. I was disagreeing. Though your response now may merit it...

"second off, i made the same post about limping AA and KK utg, and again, i get flamed for that because im 'not getting value' out of the hand." Maybe that should tell you something? I have certainly limped on occasion with monster hands. But to suggest as a general strategy to limp in with the best starting hand in poker seems a terrible strategy to advocate.

"i get flamed for that because im 'not getting value' out of the hand." You're doing worse the just 'not getting value.' You're giving junk cards a prime opportunity to steal a pot that should be yours. If you limp with Aces and the flop comes 4-4-7... and the big blind wins with his 4-9 os... you gave that away. I can see why people would 'flame' you... that's terrible advice.

"well, i dont think its getting value out of your hand when you get trapped with second best." Who said you're trapped? How are you trapped? Just because you raised preflop doesn't mean you're trapped.

"i dont put myself in difficult situations in sngs, ever." So you just don't play??? You'll be in more difficult positions if you don't raise preflop.

"its unnecessary. if you dont even play AK in the first 2 levels" That's ridiculous advice. Maybe AK is the best hand you get dealt in the first 2 rounds. If you miss an opportunity to build your stack, then you're decreasing your chances of winning the tourny. You may go card dead for the next couple of rounds and you'll wish your stack was a little higher.

Next your going to tell me you fold pocket aces preflop in the first 2 rounds.

[raptor517]

kurto, i gotta ask, what level do you play on and how many tables do you play at what roi

[curtains]

Sometimes you will bet, sometimes you won't. It depends on some factors such as number of opponents, texture of the flop etc etc.

[curtains]

You treat UTG limps as a raise in a $215 sit and go? A lot of people limp UTG with any pair and much much worse.

[Phoenix1010]

The correct answer is... there is no consensus /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
I think limping is weak. I don't understand people arguing to limp with a premium hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're arguing it because early position sucks. I'd recommend reading Tommy Angelo's posts (most recent ones are in mid-high limit, but older ones have more NL/PL). Moreso than anyone else I've seen, he argues the value of position. They may give you some perspective on why people are tentative with AK up front.

There are certainly strong arguments to be made on both sides. The argument for limping tends to rest on the fact that raising will often end up with you out of position with unpaired overcards as the preflop raiser facing a pot that's 1/4 of your stack and multiple opponents. That situation sucks, therefore people consider other options. That said, limping has its own pitfalls, but thinking about this is most certainly worth your time and effort.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think limping is weak. I don't understand people arguing to limp with a premium hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're arguing it because early position sucks. I'd recommend reading Tommy Angelo's posts (most recent ones are in mid-high limit, but older ones have more NL/PL). Moreso than anyone else I've seen, he argues the value of position. They may give you some perspective on why people are tentative with AK up front.

There are certainly strong arguments to be made on both sides. The argument for limping tends to rest on the fact that raising will often end up with you out of position with unpaired overcards as the preflop raiser facing a pot that's 1/4 of your stack and multiple opponents. That situation sucks, therefore people consider other options. That said, limping has its own pitfalls, but thinking about this is most certainly worth your time and effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. It's the structure of one table SNG's that has started to get me to think about this. The more I play them, the more I realize that it's especially important to not lose to many chips early. AK is a good hand--very likely the BEST hand when you get it UTG, but it's a hand that you can lose a lot of chips with out of position against a full table. The unique structure of these STT dictates tight play early, especially out of position.

I'd raise it UTG in a MTT, BTW.

[raptor517]

in a multi i would definitely get as many chips in there as i could, but then again im a maniac in mtts and play about half of the hands i get, so i go out early or get deep in the money. but yes, this is dead on, postition is of extreme importance. AK early does suck, and sucky situations are not for multitabling sng players.