How to handle a Cheater at a Home Game

[Max Nomad]

Greetings, all,

A group of us gets together on a regular basis and play Poker (usually dealer's choice, occasionally small hold'em tournaments, etc). The other night we were having a small party; after some of the regulars got off from work they stopped by and ended up playing a few guerrilla-style hands. While watching them, I noticed that every time one particular player shuffled the cards, whatever card was on the bottom of the deck was still on the bottom of the deck; typically high cards like face cards. Not believing what I was seeing, I watched his hands every time he dealt for the next hour or two. The same thing happened. Herein lies the heart of my questions:

1) I'm pretty sure he was doing something like dealing from the bottom of the deck or some other cheat. I'm just not sure exactly what. Before I confront him about it, I want to know the name of the stunt and be able to describe exactly what he's doing.

2) This guy is not only a pretty good friend of mine, he also works with most of the regulars and he's a roommate in the house where the games happen most of the time. If this gets out, it'll probably get ugly and cause alot of static since everyone has lost money to this guy at one time or another.

Any help, input or advice on spotting or handling cheaters in a non-volatile way would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[thetman]

BUY AN AUTOMATIC SHUFFLER...maybe $20 tops at the store.

[SCfuji]

find another game.

[FMMonty]

All home games I've played and all self deal games at casino's stop this by the person to the left of the dealer shuffles, then the person to the right of the dealer cuts the packs, and then the dealer deals.

Just say you want to play like that from now on so you can get used to it. If he argues, just ask his how it makes a difference?

[Eric H]

Don't you use a card protector on the bottom of the deck?

[37offsuit]

...break his F'in fingers.

I'd let everyone else in the group know what you suspect so you can all watch his deal. Then when one of you spots him dropping the bottom card to himself, (probably as the last card down while everyone else is picking up their cards) you all take turns pummeling his no good cheating ass.

A good way to trap him is to have someone on one side of the table cause a distraction which gets everyone (dealer included) looking at them and not at the cards. He'll see this as an opportunity to drop the bottom card to himself. A guy on the other side of the table watches for this, then hits him in the head with a hammer.

[tubalkain]

I'd use the banhammer to handle this.

[jon_1van]

First
Was that "high card" still on the bottom of the deck at the end of the hand?

Second,
Say I cut the deck when I'm getting ready to shuffle. I always put the top 1/2 in my left hand and the bottom half in my right hand. Then when I shuffle I always start by releasing the cards in right hand first. The bottom card of the deck will never change.

For instance. If the shuffles always go something like this

RRRLLRRLLLLRRLLLLRRRRRRLLLRRLRL (52 total R + Ls)
or
RLLRRLLLRRRLLRRLLLRRRLLRRRRLL
or
RRRRRLLLLRRLLLRRRLLRRRLLLRR

Notice that the first R in the sequence will never change because it will always be the bottom card of the bottom half of the deck. The bottom half of the deck you always put in your right hand.

I suggest you try this with a deck of cards.

Third,
Typically the bottom card will be a face card because 1. faces are 4/13 of the deck or 2. the dealer puts played cards at the bottom. (IE if I muck AKs at the end of the hand and the dealer ALWAYS puts those cards at the bottom of the deck just because thats how he/she gathers up the cards)



You must be VERY careful about accusing someone of cheating.

[Scorpion]

Always cut the deck and use a card cutter for the bottom of the deck.

[MeridianFC]

[ QUOTE ]


1) I'm pretty sure he was doing something like dealing from the bottom of the deck or some other cheat. I'm just not sure exactly what. Before I confront him about it, I want to know the name of the stunt and be able to describe exactly what he's doing.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is the infamous "base dealing". Two ways of controlling a deck are to hold in reserve high (or for "smart" cheaters a lower but desireable) card(s) on the bottom (base) or as the card just under the top, the later being known as "dealing seconds".

[TheNoodleMan]

If you want to know how to spot a cheat, go get a copy of Scarne on Cards. Its a classic, and available at a far cheaper price than most gaming texts these days.
Personally, when I suspect funny business, I bring along a friend who happens to be a magician. I find this works extremely well.

[hackle]

[ QUOTE ]

While watching them, I noticed that every time one particular player shuffled the cards, whatever card was on the bottom of the deck was still on the bottom of the deck; typically high cards like face cards. Not believing what I was seeing, I watched his hands every time he dealt for the next hour or two.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't someone cutting the deck? That would seem to negate this condition, unless he's working with a partner to his right, or he's capable of 'hopping' the cut through sleight of hand. This requires a considerable amount of skill to do under scrutiny. Similarly, dealing bottoms is a high-skill endeavor.

You don't mention how he was shuffling (overhand, riffle, etc.) This could simply be a case of sloppy shuffling. Both commonly performed shuffles, done inefficiently, can produce what you describe. But again, at least a cut would negate it.

hackle

[maryfield48]

That's why you should riffle riffle box riffle.

[Jay36489]

I agree the slight of hand trick's you're talking about take a LOT of skill. You need to make sure this guy is cheating before you accuse him. It's unlikely he got enough practice in his spare time without his roomates noticing him practicing card manipulation. check out what grip he uses to deal. Are all 4 fingers on the long edge of the cards and the thumb on the opposite side? This is the way most people deal, and if he uses this grip he isn't cheating. If he uses a different grip it doesnt neccesarily mean he is cheating. Some just use different grips naturally. If the same card stays on the bottom when he shuffles it could easily be very poor shuffling technique. And for that matter, does he end up with the card on the bottom? Or does one person end up with it?

EDIT: Oh and others have said what is your shuffle and cut routine? 1 person should shuffle, another cut, and the third should be the dealer. This practically eliminates any cheating nonsense.

[Nelly]

You asked what he was doing. This is what I think is the most likely (assuming he is cheating.)

Although it is very easy to peek at the last card without people noticing dealing from the bottom is trickier and requires some real practice.

Something that is not as hard to do is a false shuffle. I am a bad amateur magician and I can false shuffle well enough to give myself the two best cards I pick up from the muck (and I am not the only one at our table!!).

You've been given some great ideas by the responses on how to stop it.

[warewulf]

If you want to prove that he is bottom dealing, try to write down the card that's on the bottom. If it ends up in his hand...

Like others have mentioned, the deck should ALWAYS be cut and use a cut card on the bottom. The dealer should NEVER handle the deck before ready to be dealt. Similar to mentioned above:
Last dealer shuffles, person to left of dealer cuts to the new dealer onto a cut card.

If you suspect partners, do not set them within 3 spots of each other. If they sit down together, insist on drawing cards for position.

[lighterjobs]

just make sure the cards are always cut. make sure he shuffles the card instead of just riffling them around. use a cut card. if this guy is still trouble, confront him about it, but not in front of everyone. just man to man.

[Douper]

OP was angle shooting watching the bottom of the deck /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[SamIAm]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to know how to spot a cheat, go get a copy of Scarne on Cards. Its a classic

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451113802/002-0297149-1508072?v=glance) the book you meant? It doesn't seem to be much about cheating. Is there just one chapter that matters? I don't really need to learn how to play pinocle. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-Sam

[faith]

How to handle a cheat in a home game among friends isn't a question a forum can really help you with.

How to prevent it: improve your game's protocol. How everyone deals, shuffles, cuts, use chips... etc.

If cheating is discovered? Every social group is different.
How would the group handle the situation if the cheater flat out stole an equivilent ammount of money from them... It probly should be handled in a similar manner.

If a friend lifted 20 bucks from my wallet, pending on the situation/ our relationship; I might not ever say anything. But I would surely limit or eliminate his oppurtunity to do it again.
On the other hand, if another friend lifted 20 bucks from my wallet, pending the situation/ our relationship; he might never walk again...

Like I said, how to handle cheating, depends on your social dynamic.

just my ignorant take since I play online and haven't worn clothes nor seen another living person while playing cards in... damn near forever now
why oh why do I live in Thailand???

-faith

[Mars357]

This sounds a little akward but it seems to work pretty well.

After the shuffle and cut, the dealer places the deck of cards on the table and leaves it there... When dealing cards, the dealer simply slides a card off the top (while the deck is still on the table). It is a little slower but there is no way for the dealer to pull a card off the bottom this way....

[brokedickrooster]

Spend $1 and get a cut card.

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to know how to spot a cheat, go get a copy of Scarne on Cards. Its a classic

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451113802/002-0297149-1508072?v=glance) the book you meant? It doesn't seem to be much about cheating. Is there just one chapter that matters? I don't really need to learn how to play pinocle. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-Sam

[/ QUOTE ]
yep, thats the book, and its just a chapter, but it is pretty extensive. Normally, I wouldn't reccommend buying a book for just one chapter, but at that price, why not? Most of the card play is dated, but the basic cheats that you'll run into are still the same.
Scarne was the premiere authority on gambling in his day, some of the other info in the book is quite interesting from a historical perspective, although not neccessarily +ev.

[neorab]

[ QUOTE ]
Spend $1 and get a cut card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or simply take a few jokers and tape them together it you are too poor/shy/dumb/late to buy a cut card.

[TomBrooks]

Isn't it standard for the person on the dealers right to always cut the cards? I supose a card mechanic might be able to uncut the cards, but if he can do that, your talking about a pretty accomplished card manipulator.

[RackOChips]

Also, always use a cut card. It's easy to make one by taping the two jokers face to face. This will make it impossible to deal bottoms, and fixes the problem with the dealer accidently exposing the last card.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, always use a cut card. It's easy to make one by taping the two jokers face to face. This will make it impossible to deal bottoms, and fixes the problem with the dealer accidently exposing the last card.

[/ QUOTE ]

A cut card on the bottom of the deck can make it difficult to deal from the bottom, but not impossible. I've seen a video clip somewhere online. The guy shows the Ace /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the bottom of the deck, with a cut card. He deals out four cards, one of them is the Ace /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I had actually instituted that players had to leave the deck on the table while they dealt, so I could hopefully avoid the bottom deal (we were also using a cut card). But it's a major pain in the ass to keep the deck on the table, so I've tasked all the players with being observant enough to watch for cheats. Plus we still use the cut card.

[Hellmouth]

[ QUOTE ]
BUY AN AUTOMATIC SHUFFLER...maybe $20 tops at the store.

[/ QUOTE ]

$6.88 at walmart. Shuffles up to 2 decks.

Greg

[Lottery Larry]

as others have said, cut them off by not letting the dealer shuffle.

Why in this day and age would anyone allow dealers to shuffle poker unless you are 100% sure of everyone's honesty?

[Lottery Larry]

"so I've tasked all the players with being observant enough to watch for cheats. Plus we still use the cut card. "

Please tell me you stopped the "dealers shuffle for themselves" problem.

[LockForward]

I doubt someone skilled enough to sucessfully cheat would be sloppy enough to repeatedly allow you to see the bottom card.

[Onaflag]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BUY AN AUTOMATIC SHUFFLER...maybe $20 tops at the store.

[/ QUOTE ]

$6.88 at walmart. Shuffles up to 2 decks.

Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

That shuffler sucks. With the exception of the super expensive ones in the casinos, I don't think there is a "for real" shuffler out there. Someone needs to invent one that does the job right for under a couple hundred bucks. I bet it would be an instant success.

If anyone knows of one, I stand corrected and will buy it, but stay away from those plastic kiddie toys.

Onaflag..............

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BUY AN AUTOMATIC SHUFFLER...maybe $20 tops at the store.

[/ QUOTE ]

$6.88 at walmart. Shuffles up to 2 decks.

Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

That shuffler sucks. With the exception of the super expensive ones in the casinos, I don't think there is a "for real" shuffler out there. Someone needs to invent one that does the job right for under a couple hundred bucks. I bet it would be an instant success.

If anyone knows of one, I stand corrected and will buy it, but stay away from those plastic kiddie toys.

Onaflag..............

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Throw that $6.88 in the trash, you'll feel better than if you owned that piece of junk.

[bukkrukk]

A book about cheating (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0486285979/ref=pd_sim_b_5/104-0262832-6409519?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance)

[Los Feliz Slim]

Obviously, you need to verify if he's actually cheating. Maybe try NOT playing yourself one night while the game is being played, but stick around a little to watch the action. Unless the guy is Kreskin you should be able to nail him.

As far as not wanting to ruffle feathers, screw that. I dealt with something very similar when I was in my fraternity house, and if the guy's a liar, I'm sure it gets much worse than cheating at cards. You owe it to yourself and anyone else living with him to get an answer. Just keeping him from cheating again doesn't solve the problem.

[smartalecc5]

just use a cutcard

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, always use a cut card. It's easy to make one by taping the two jokers face to face.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome suggestion! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[imported_stealthcow]

[ QUOTE ]
check out what grip he uses to deal. Are all 4 fingers on the long edge of the cards and the thumb on the opposite side? This is the way most people deal, and if he uses this grip he isn't cheating. If he uses a different grip it doesnt neccesarily mean he is cheating. Some just use different grips naturally.

[/ QUOTE ]

not true. my friends a magician, and he can cheat with 4 fingers along the edge of the deck no problem.

get a cut card. unless this guys a pro you wont have any more problems. i'd sit to his direct left/right when you play with him look for sounds, watch the top card of the deck (it will slide forward and then back if he's dealing off the bottom/middle). also look for a sound. if you deal off the bottom there's a noise that comes out

stealthcow-

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
also look for a sound. if you deal off the bottom there's a noise that comes out

stealthcow-

[/ QUOTE ]
this is the way to catch them, but you have to know the sound. Once again, I suggest a magician. I know it sounds lame, but they are the best at catching these cheats. Totally objective too.

[Golden_Rhino]

What I did in a similar situation is I called him on it at the table, but I made it seem like I was kidding. It did the job in that A. he suspected I knew, and B. the other players kept their eyes on him. No use getting into a big thing at a home game, but you don't wanna get ripped off either.