Interesting quote.

[nothumb]

"It is characteristic of a society in decline that political discourse becomes polarized to extremes previously unimagined, with each side increasingly unable to pose practical, balanced solutions to even the simplest of problems."

Discuss...

NT

[nothumb]

Sorry, let me edit this post so you can understand it.

"Lying filthy morally repugnant debased liberal conservative fascist goat-blowing chickenhawk George Will blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah."

(I had a feeling there would be an eerie silence here...)

NT

[wacki]

I actually responded, but I deleted because I didn't want to be an ass.

Since you are dying for a response, I will tell you my original reply had the words common and sense in it.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually responded, but I deleted because I didn't want to be an ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at your avatar, fer Chrissakes.

Anyway, you're in the Politics forum, I'm sure it would have been fine. Not like you've got the high standards of OOT to worry about.

NT

[Koller]

[ QUOTE ]
Lying filthy morally repugnant debased liberal conservative fascist goat-blowing chickenhawk George Will blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great quote. I totally agree.

Politics forum is full of morons. Conservatist and liberal morons.

This is my last post in the politics forum.

Bye morons!

[wacki]

Good night NoThumb. Btw, what did you expect? That quote is worth saying to your kids, but it isn't deep and meaningful enough to start some intellectual conversation. I think you have been hanging around 5 year olds way too much.

Hey, here is a very similar quote.

"You know your relationship is on the rocks when everything turns into a fight."

Come on NT discuss!

Where did you get that quote?

[nothumb]

Okay, I know, it's pretty simple stuff, I'm thinking start with an obvious maxim that neither rabid, frothing side can dispute. Point out that both would probably be forced to agree that they think US society is deteriorating but that they do not agree on the reasons at all. I think it's an interesting question. Half the people would say deport the liberals to France, the other half would say impeach Bush and storm the gates over at Fox News.

Anyway, the more time I spend around here, the more I empathize with Zeno, which is a little scary. Basically at this point the sun is setting on US supremacy and the majority are asleep at the switch. I'm just hoping that nuclear deterrence and our geographic isolation prevent a major land war on this continent and nobody sneaks any nukes in. Probably hoping for too much though.

NT

[wacki]

Now that is an actual thought worthy of discussing. BTW, I also tend to empathize with Zeno which I also find scary. I will write more later, I need sleep.

Later NT.

[wacki]

Here is a quote for you to think about. I think it has much relevance today as it did when it was originally crafted.

"I fear we have awoken a sleeping giant."

[adios]

Quantitative measure of such a thing would be useful as I find qualitative assessments basically useless for such a thing most of the time.

[nothumb]

Sure would. Unfortunately I've decided not to get a graduate degree in Politics or I might do a little research on similar conditions in other declining societies. As it stands, I'd rather play Boggle.

NT

[bholdr]

Obviously you're trying to draw paralells between the subject of this quote and the current political climate in the United States. I think that maybe you're seeing things a little out of perspective.

To believe that it's really any worse (in terms of the partisan bickering and un-cooperative tone in Washington) than it has been over the last two centuries is silly. It's always been more or less the same, sometimes (civil war, jefferson presidency, veitnam) much worse.

Despite the current appearance of rancor, the 'system' is functioning quite well, even somewhat hobbled, the U.S. economy dwarfs all competitors, and militarily we're still 5x as powerful as our nearest rival.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
"It is characteristic of a society in decline that political discourse becomes polarized to extremes previously unimagined, with each side increasingly unable to pose practical, balanced solutions to even the simplest of problems."

[/ QUOTE ]

The real problem is that this quote obscures the important fact about the polarized environment of today. This is that while we are experiencing a very high degree of polarizing rhetoric and "side-choosing" the substantive policy positions of the two sides are incredibly close by historical standards on the issues that have traditionally been most salient in modern societies - redistribution and market governance.

If you want polarization, take a time warp back to 1968.

[Felix_Nietsche]

"It is characteristic of a society in decline that political discourse becomes polarized to extremes previously unimagined, with each side increasingly unable to pose practical, balanced solutions to even the simplest of problems."
*****************************************
Discuss.....
How about this, a lame arrogant quote by a political moderate (defintion: a person who does not know their own political beliefs so they mindlessly take the middle ground on every political issue) who wants to feel superior over the conservatives and liberals by wrapping themselves in the cloak of being 'above the fray'...

[Aytumious]

This quote could have easily been written by your namesake Nietzsche about when the "herd" mentality has taken over the political discourse in a nation.

[EarlCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Politics forum is full of morons. Conservatist and liberal morons.

This is my last post in the politics forum.

Bye morons!

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do people feel compelled to tell us this? Are we supposed to send a good-bye present?

[Felix_Nietsche]

Mindlessly taking the middle position takes no courage...
As a famous radio personality says, 'they will never write a book called the 'Moderates Who Changed the World''.....

By the way, what qualifications do you have to KNOW Nietzsche's opionion on the mentioned quote?

[Kaz The Original]

The us is not polarized to extremes. The democrats and the republics, while they both have differences, are no where near as different as say many european political parties, or even Canada's political spetrum.

[InchoateHand]

Its fascinating this vision of a "polarized" America---the Dems and Reps. are closer in terms of actual policy than at any point in the last Century. Not only that, but vast empirical studies (for what they are worth--and feel free to google what I'm talking about) show that the majority of the citizenry agress on most issues. This gigantic gulf simply doesn't exist--but constantly ragging on it serve interests on both more extreme sides.
Ah well.

[InchoateHand]

Both economically and militarily we will be China's bitches inside the next four decades. I'm hardly xenophobic, so I'll leave my value judgements out of this, but within most of our life times China will come to dominate the world stage. There is nothing that can stop this except the Chinese themselves, so I suggest others learn Mandarin. (It is actually a reasonably easy language to learn, despite the vast efforts of memorization if you want to more fully appreciate its ideographic calligraphy).

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
How about this, a lame arrogant quote by a political moderate (defintion: a person who does not know their own political beliefs so they mindlessly take the middle ground on every political issue) who wants to feel superior over the conservatives and liberals by wrapping themselves in the cloak of being 'above the fray'...

[/ QUOTE ]

I am about the farthest thing from a political 'moderate' that you will ever meet in your life. I posted the quote to start a discussion.

Do you disagree? Do you think that political discourse in this country is productive?

I do not disagree with those posters who say that the substantial differences between the two parties are at quite possibly an all-time low. (Anyone who has read my posts on US politics in the past will recall this.) In fact, I don't think that negates the importance of the general rancor in political discourse at all. I think the important point about this appearance of divide and disagreement when the evidence points to the opposite is that the vast majority of people do not understand, recognize, or seriously consider the most important issues as they pertain to them. They are too busy arguing about what is basically two different approaches to late-stage capitalism; one that gives the poor a reach-around, and one that doesn't bother. Differences in foreign policy are similar; they are not moral arguments, but pragmatic ones, as both parties speak the language of US supremacy abroad.

The basic questions that society faces are, how will we produce and distribute wealth? Who is responsible for organizing wealth and who is responsible for organizing power? All of these questions have been answered long before we go to the polls.

Again, I'm not saying that differences don't exist, and that elections and other power struggles don't affect our lives in the long run. But people vastly overestimate the power of the American electorate to make quantifiable changes in their own daily lives, especially in predictable ways.

There is a lot more to this but I'll leave it there for now.

NT

[InchoateHand]

[ QUOTE ]
I am about the farthest thing from a political 'moderate' that you will ever meet in your life. I posted the quote to start a discussion.

Do you disagree? Do you think that political discourse in this country is productive?

I do not disagree with those posters who say that the substantial differences between the two parties are at quite possibly an all-time low. (Anyone who has read my posts on US politics in the past will recall this.) In fact, I don't think that negates the importance of the general rancor in political discourse at all. I think the important point about this appearance of divide and disagreement when the evidence points to the opposite is that the vast majority of people do not understand, recognize, or seriously consider the most important issues as they pertain to them. They are too busy arguing about what is basically two different approaches to late-stage capitalism; one that gives the poor a reach-around, and one that doesn't bother. Differences in foreign policy are similar; they are not moral arguments, but pragmatic ones, as both parties speak the language of US supremacy abroad.

The basic questions that society faces are, how will we produce and distribute wealth? Who is responsible for organizing wealth and who is responsible for organizing power? All of these questions have been answered long before we go to the polls.

Again, I'm not saying that differences don't exist, and that elections and other power struggles don't affect our lives in the long run. But people vastly overestimate the power of the American electorate to make quantifiable changes in their own daily lives, especially in predictable ways.

There is a lot more to this but I'll leave it there for now.

[/ QUOTE ]

[InchoateHand]

The fact that Zeno shares a name with the main character (whatever its historical pedigree) of a novel created by an illustrious French writer who was recently posthumously profiled by the NYT Magazine should cast some aspersions on his political character.

[Zeno]

Enjoyed your post. The following link is to a magazine that I subscribe to that usually has interesting and stimulating articles. Note the Autumn 2004 issue with the 'Politics as War' cover. Some very worthwhile reading in that issue, along with almost every other issue as well. Wilson Quarterly (http://wwics.si.edu/index.cfm?fuseaction=wq.order)

If you do not wish to purchase the issue it should be available in any large library.

-Zeno

PS - Stoics are not scary. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[InchoateHand]

WQ is an excellent magazine---top notch policy analysis, well-rounded articles. I'm too cheap for my own subscription, but I get them all one month after the quarter from a family member.

[Zeno]

NYT magazine? French writer? A character named Zeno?

Here is something of much more interest Pantheism (http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/zeno.htm)

Le Misanthrope

[InchoateHand]

I was just kidding---I'm loosely familir with the Stoic--in times of undue pressure my father always returns to Stoic philosophers, so they have been something of a constant in my life.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Both economically and militarily we will be China's bitches inside the next four decades. I'm hardly xenophobic, so I'll leave my value judgements out of this, but within most of our life times China will come to dominate the world stage. There is nothing that can stop this except the Chinese themselves, so I suggest others learn Mandarin.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you know all this...how?

[lastchance]

It's a guess, a prediction. China has a workforce, resources, and is really starting to get technology, infrastructure and capital. When you start to get all that, there is a large chance of major growth. Do you not agree China is a major threat to America's position as the main superpower?

[Il_Mostro]

Two words
peak oil

There ain't gonna be any superpowers soon enough. The next 40 years will be rough on the american public. As it will be on Europe, and most of the rest of the world.

[Felix_Nietsche]

"I am about the farthest thing from a political 'moderate' that you will ever meet in your life"
****************************************
I was referring to the author of the quote.
You have never disrespected me and I would have no cause to disrespect you.

I don't think very highly of this quote.
In politics, too many people mindlessly take the middle position because it is consider to be more safe and a more 'respectable' position. Then to rub salt in the wounds these same people often develop a misplaced smug sense of superiority over other political groups. I simply believe then when you take a position on a political issue, it should be based on reason and not whether it is a more acceptable position than an 'extreme' position...

Almost all great changes that have taken place have been because of extreme people.
E.g. The founders of the USA. They were pioneers.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Almost all great changes that have taken place have been because of extreme people.
E.g. The founders of the USA. They were pioneers.

[/ QUOTE ]

And many of the decisions they arrived at were moderate/compromise positions.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a guess, a prediction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. But he made it sound as if it were a foregone conclusion.

[Felix_Nietsche]

There were some comprimises...
E.g. Each state getting two senators so that smaller states would have additional power.

But the US constitution was a unique document, which contain many radical new ideas.

Just before the Western Roman Empire fell, the had huge problems. The only way they could have save themselves was to have made some extreme changes. They did not and the Goths sacked Rome... Moderate changes would have not saved the Western Roman Empire.

The quote seems to argue that moderation is wiser than the extremes. This is what I take issue with.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
The quote seems to argue that moderation is wiser than the extremes. This is what I take issue with.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It just points out that the lack of a discernible 'center' in public discourse indicates a problem, although not for the reasons one would assume.

I'm surprised nobody has figured out where it came from.

NT

[Aytumious]

The mindless polarization and sensationalism in the current political discourse is clearly a step into the common and base which Nietzsche described as the herd mentality. My qualifications are the ability to read, understand, and make inferences and extrapolations, although I never said I "knew" exactly what Nietzsche's opinion would be because doing so would be, quite frankly, clearly idiotic.