Intersesting hand PP 15/30 [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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bvaughn

02-14-2005, 03:43 AM

I played this hand earlier, and I thought it played out interesting. All three opponents in this hand were LAGs with VPIPs>35 and PFRs>10.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG raises, 4 folds, CO 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG caps, CO calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, CO bets, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG raises, CO 3-bets, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (14 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, CO bets, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG folds, CO folds, SB calls.

River: (21 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB ?????

Preflop, I would not have come in without the SB calling, and even then, I think it was questionable whether I should have called two bets cold from the BB. UTGs cap preflop meant nothing to me as I'd seen this player cap with rags earlier.

On the flop, my first call was easy and the second call was a little closer, but still was correct with 4 outs to the straight plus 1 for backdoor nut flush.

The turn is where I think got a little out of line, probably showing off for a friend who was watching me play. When the Q of diamonds appeared, my outs went from approx. 5 to 12, with a very large pot already. My thinking at the time centered on building the pot in case my draw came in, but looking back I think it was a correct raise for value. The 3 bet was getting 17:3 on an approx. 4:1 shot. Any comments?

When the river came a complete brick my heart sank, but when the SB checked I couldn't just check behind in a 21 BB pot so I fired one last desperate shot...and just about fell out of my chair when the pot slid my way after the SB folded.

TStoneMBD

02-14-2005, 03:50 AM

this is a clear fold in the bb. not close.

JAA

02-14-2005, 11:50 PM

Hey BVaughn...

Preflop: I would definitely fold this without much of a second thought, even against LAGs.

Flop: You can easily call for one bet on the flop (as you did), but when it is two mroe back to you it is a lot closer. I rememver Sklansky talking about how calculating the odds of a backdoor flush can be deceptive, since most people don't take into account the times that you catch a 4-flush on the turn, are forced to call, and miss. But, I do think you still have the odds to call here.

Turn: Very cute

River: As you concluded, you definitely have to bet in this spot. Nice Hand.

- Jags

Benjamin

02-15-2005, 12:27 AM

Agree it's a routine preflop fold unless all opponents are complete and utter maniacs. Flop is iffy but probably pretty justifiable. Turn 3-bet ... hmm ... I think I'd rather have the cheaper draw and greater odds of cold calling. But, jamming the draw and getting people out will increase your odds of winning and this is a big pot ... how often you win on average I'm not sure. It worked this time like you dream it will, but I'm skeptical that turn raise is a money maker.

B.

Paluka

02-15-2005, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The turn is where I think got a little out of line, probably showing off for a friend who was watching me play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice.

SinCityGuy

02-15-2005, 12:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
All three opponents in this hand were LAGs

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like they were in good company. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Fancy play syndrome with a happy ending.

Kaz The Original

02-15-2005, 01:03 AM

*shakes head sorrowfully*

Take up roulette at a casino if you wanna try this sort of play. It's better EV and free drinks.

DcifrThs

02-15-2005, 01:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
*shakes head sorrowfully*

Take up roulette at a casino if you wanna try this sort of play. It's better EV and free drinks.

[/ QUOTE ]

and its not close.

-Barron

surfdoc

02-15-2005, 03:16 AM

Looks like the LAGS are multiplying.

Benjamin

02-15-2005, 11:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking at the time centered on building the pot in case my draw came in, but looking back I think it was a correct raise for value. The 3 bet was getting 17:3 on an approx. 4:1 shot. Any comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is mistaken thinking. When you are considering raising a draw for value you can only consider the new money that will come in from opponents in response to that bet. In this case you have a little better than a 4:1 draw. You need at least 4 opponents to call your bet for your raise to be a value raise. You can't consider the pot when thinking of raising a draw because you can play for the pot by simply calling.

Say you call that turn raise instead of reraising. You put in 2 bets, the CO probably calls behind instead of folding, so you get 18:2 or 9:1, plus you have a better chance of letting someone else in so you might get 20:2 or 22:2. When you raised you shut out every one else and got 18:3 or 6:1, much worse odds. And when you consider new money that came into the pot in response to your raise you only got 1:1, far worse than the 4:1 you needed to be making money on it.

The raise, instead of a being a value raise, was a field clearing raise that set up a successful river bluff. It sure won't work like that very often against this big of a field, though.

B.

kelvin474

02-15-2005, 01:22 PM

do you see why?

URMeowed

02-15-2005, 01:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
River: As you concluded, you definitely have to bet in this spot. Nice Hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. This guy has been passive until his turn raise. What could he have possibly folded that ace high couldn't beat already? Meowheads!

Meow.