KK on the button

[Quad fours]

This is on party .5-$1. UTG is pretty loose and his post flop play is horrible. He will call down with any pair and raises if he has top pair or better. However, he started respecting my preflop raises, as I was showing down big hands against him. The other player in the hand was a player that I haven't played with before. We are six handed with two new players who just posted. I pick up K /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the button

Preflop: UTG limps, MP (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, I raise, blinds fold, UTG calls, MP folds, CO calls. Pot size 4 BB

Flop: A /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG bets, CO calls, I call Pot size 5.5BB

I hate this flop. My read on UTG is a weak ace, but who knows, the guy is crazy. I have no read on the CO. Looking back on it, I hate my call. I think I should be raising or folding, due to my read.

Turn: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG bets, CO calls, I raise, both call Pot size 11.5BB

I like this card. It give me lots of outs to the possible nuts. Having both players call my raise here perplexed me a bit. Is this ok? Thanks in advance.

[Shillx]

Given the read I would fold on the flop. If he will only bet/raise with top pair or better, you are in bad shape and you don't have odds to chase a 2 outer with some dubious backdoor draws. Also, just call the turn bet in this spot.

Brad

[guitarhero14]

the turn may have helped you but it didnt warrant a raise.

[Quad fours]

Wow, I thought the flop call was the bad part. I think the turn raise was ok because I thought the UTG would think that I was slowplaying a big hand.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I thought the flop call was the bad part. I think the turn raise was ok because I thought the UTG would think that I was slowplaying a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You still won't fold an A here

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I thought the flop call was the bad part. I think the turn raise was ok because I thought the UTG would think that I was slowplaying a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a thinking player, maybe. Against the person you describe (ie. he will call with any pair) then he will not fold an ace here even 1 in 10000 times.

Brad

[Quad fours]

But he has to be scared with that turn card, right?

[Hellrazor]

Based on your read - if UTG will call down with any pair, and you put him on a possible Ax on the flop - raising here does nothing for you but charge you an extra bet to draw to your nut flush.
What was your play if he 3 bet you on this?

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
But he has to be scared with that turn card, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

He will be scared enough not to 3-bet. /images/graemlins/wink.gif This play might be a bit better at higher limits, but at the micros he's gonna call you down with a pair.

[Quad fours]

Based on my read of the UTG player, he would not 3-bet without the nuts. He was way too passive. I am surprised that the turn raise is the major factor in the hand.

[Quad fours]

Your right jaxup, he did call, but are we still all against the turn raise.

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on my read of the UTG player, he would not 3-bet without the nuts. He was way too passive. I am surprised that the turn raise is the major factor in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then all your turn raise did was ensure he didn't bet again. I still don't think your raise is going to force somebody to fold here, unless you have a read that he is crazy weak-tight, but you said your read was passive.

Edit. Haha, I am still against this turn raise here. Sorry. Maybe I'm wrong, what do others think?

[Quad fours]

Jaxup, I don't know if that turn raise was so bad. I've got nine outs to the flush, queen outs to the straight, and the king outs.

[jaxUp]

9 /images/graemlins/spade.gifs help
the other 3 J's help
I give 1 out only for the kings as they may give a str8.

= 13 outs.
U hit ~ 28% of the time.

You are putting in 1/3 of the money. This is clearly not like, say, pumping a flush draw on th flop with 3 or 4 callers.

What helps you is that You have a chance to make others fold, but I think that you will make BOTH of them fold very seldom, like maybe 1 in 20 or less.

I am not sure how these two figures interact, maybe somebody who is more math savvy can help. However, I do think that it is at best neutral EV, and probably slightly -EV

[Quad fours]

For what its worth, the river was the 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG showed AJo
CO folded to my river bet