An interesting bubble hand

[adanthar]

I took about a week off (food poisoning + a bad run playing over my head) and am just getting back into the 50's. This is an example of one of those concepts that I've been thinking about while I've been gone and that I've posted about a little earlier.

50+5, 4 handed, blinds at 200/400. I'm UTG with 1500 holding ATo. The big stack to my left with 4K is pretty loose; the SB to his left, with 3.5K, is a little bit better but still on the loose side. The BB, with 700 (300 after posting) is the typical loose early/weak late/terrible all the time player.

I minraise half my stack.

[bigredlemon]

Why not just push? You're pot committing yourself with a hand that's isn't strong enough to let others see a cheap flop with you, and hit their Q or K.

[11t]

I think you are just tryiing to make it look like you have a better hand than you do and you want action. However if you get called you have to push no matter what flop it is, therefore I push PF.

"I minraise half my stack."

If you cannot see the problem with this then I shall not point it out.

[adanthar]

I don't mind pot committing myself with this hand at all, but the real question is what the BB does.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just push? You're pot committing yourself with a hand that's isn't strong enough to let others see a cheap flop with you, and hit their Q or K.

[/ QUOTE ]

The idea, I think, is that if Adanthar pushes and is called anywhere, the bb sees him all in and has an easy fold with lots and lots of hands he'd call with. If no one else calls, the BB has to call with a lot of hands. If the other 2 players call or push and the bb calls, Adanthar can think about dumping the hand, right?

I think it's clever but it's just beyond my grasp to figure out if it's better than pushing.

[bigredlemon]

Is this more of a long term thing?
Like, if he folds, you show AT, and min raise with crap next time?

Or, are you just bored?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
The idea, I think, is that if Adanthar pushes and is called anywhere, the bb sees him all in and has an easy fold with lots and lots of hands he'd call with. If no one else calls, the BB has to call with a lot of hands. If the other 2 players call or push and the bb calls, Adanthar can think about dumping the hand, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the BB calls after a big stack pushes, my job is done and calling behind him is really easy; it's if he folds that I have a problem. However, I think this happens less often than the I push -> button calls -> BB folds sequence (making it look like I want action is a nice bonus), so it's a net positive.

I think stack sizes and the fact that the players on my left don't think much are 100% of this hand.

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The idea, I think, is that if Adanthar pushes and is called anywhere, the bb sees him all in and has an easy fold with lots and lots of hands he'd call with. If no one else calls, the BB has to call with a lot of hands. If the other 2 players call or push and the bb calls, Adanthar can think about dumping the hand, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the BB calls after a big stack pushes, my job is done and calling behind him is really easy; it's if he folds that I have a problem. However, I think this happens less often than the I push -> button calls -> BB folds sequence (making it look like I want action is a nice bonus), so it's a net positive.

I think stack sizes and the fact that the players on my left don't think much are 100% of this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, if you miniraise, button pushes, and bb folds, do you also fold? I assume not, and that you're committed either way and that this is a ploy to increase the chances of keeping bb in.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if you miniraise, button pushes, and bb folds, do you also fold? I assume not, and that you're committed either way and that this is a ploy to increase the chances of keeping bb in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Barring a really weird tell like him hitting the 'bet pot' button to reraise, 95% of the time, I'm fine with calling.

Really, the tricky part is if he just calls, BB folds, and the flop is rags or KQx or monotone or something. At that point I may be folding and playing for third. Fine - I'll be posting 400 of my 700 but the SB will post 2 of his 3. He has to call a raise and we'll probably play 3 way on the next hand.

But what's more important is that minraise -> call -> fold or minraise -> push -> fold probably happen less often combined than push -> call -> fold. With these exact stack sizes, push -> call -> fold sucks and you should avoid that as much as possible.

[Irieguy]

I like it.

Irieguy

[AtticusFinch]

I posted a very similar notion a while back and got ripped apart. If memory serves, AD, you were one of the rippers. /images/graemlins/wink.gif I'm just wondering if there is some nuance to your situation here that I missed when I made my similar proposition. (I wish I could remember exactly how I described it).

I think I focused more on preserving a little folding equity on the flop if you're called with a low pair that doesn't hit trips, but which would happily have called a push. Do you think that's an added benefit here? Or are you purely trying to get the short stack into the pot with you?

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]


"I minraise half my stack."

If you cannot see the problem with this then I shall not point it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if I can't see the problem with this. Will you point it out to me?

Irieguy

[ChrisV]

I don't get it. Minraise is the worst possible action. Taking this hand up against Kx/Qx/Jx heads up sucks badly, and you're giving your opponents the impression they have fold equity. Hell, if I was a big stack here I'd be inclined to reraise you with any excuse. I've reraised in this situation any number of times and had it go BB folds, UTG folds.

If someone goes over the top of you, BB will fold anyway a good percentage of the time. You know it, I know it. They love it.

I'd rather do anything else. Fold is pretty bad but at least you get a free shot at button or SB taking out BB (as opposed to getting a free shot at them taking you out). Push is fine. Call works for me too, with the intention of folding a push if BB folds.

To sum up, my big question to you is: What does minraising achieve that calling doesn't? OK, BB will be able to fold on the flop and retain 300, but who cares?

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Hell, if I was a big stack here I'd be inclined to reraise you with any excuse. I've reraised in this situation any number of times and had it go BB folds, UTG folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I thought either of the guys to my left were capable of that play I wouldn't do this.

[ QUOTE ]
To sum up, my big question to you is: What does minraising achieve that calling doesn't? OK, BB will be able to fold on the flop and retain 300, but who cares?

[/ QUOTE ]

I still have too many chips to outright play for third, and I'm really not interested in having the SB complete and then bet any flop, which he'll certainly do.

Also, if BB saves t300 and I lose the hand, I'll have 1100 left and have to autofold my BB to a raise whether he calls or not. No good.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this more of a long term thing?
Like, if he folds, you show AT, and min raise with crap next time?

Or, are you just bored?

[/ QUOTE ]

He is not pushing because if he pushes and one of the big stacks calls, the BB may fold....but if he just raises, the BB will likely call even if one of the big stacks calls. Then, he'd have to lose both to the big stack and to the BB to finish OOTM. If I understand him correctly.

Witty idea, adanthar, if that was indeed your idea.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]
but if he just raises, the BB will likely call even if one of the big stacks calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

How likely is this, do you think? I would think that almost any BB wanting to try and fold his way into the money vs a push by hero would realize hero is pot committed with that raise, and still fold.

Of course, I could be wrong. If I am, the play has great potential.

Question: What about ChrisV's idea of limping here? I think BB will probably push vs a couple of limpers. Either that or autopush the flop. (Which Hero can autocall in turn).

[ChrisV]

The thing about call is that the only time you outright play for third is if one of the other stacks sees fit to raise. In this instance he probably has a pretty good hand, so playing for third is your best strategy and a raise could well have walked into disaster. It's true that if SB completes AND bets any flop AND BB folds AND you didn't flop a pair, AND then next hand you have to fold BB AND SB triples up, then you'll be in a bad situation, although still by no means hopeless.

Your claimed benefit for minraise over push, which if I understand you correctly is that BB will play rather than fold when someone comes over the top, I think is largely illusory. BB will fold anyway. If there's one thing the shortstacks typically love it's trying to engineer a folding war. Meanwhile there's a very serious drawback to minraising compared to pushing, which is that the other stacks may be convinced they have fold equity and will move in on you with hands they would have folded to a push. Perhaps you think this is unlikely, but you must admit it is often a disaster when it happens.

Basically I think on this hand you have to decide whether you are a man or a mouse. You can take the cautious call route, which has the best chance of netting a third, or you can push and hope nobody is dominating you, and try to score BB's chips.

Trying to build a man/mouse hybrid is a doomed enterprise. That man and mouse DNA just don't splice.

Edit: Notice that when you call, the incentive for the big stacks to push is much reduced, because since you don't look anywhere near as pot committed, BB should conclude his best strategy is to call.

[AtticusFinch]

[ QUOTE ]

Trying to build a man/mouse hybrid is a doomed enterprise. That man and mouse DNA just don't splice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, my mouse early, man later hybrid is working OK so far.

[rachelwxm]

Against aggressive opponent, I don't like this move. You have two big stack next to act who do not care to doubling you up and a short stack bb whose only hope is to make ITM. It's a perfect setup for a resteal.

Are you going to call if button pushes and bb fold?

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
Really, the tricky part is if he just calls, BB folds, and the flop is rags or KQx or monotone or something. At that point I may be folding and playing for third. Fine - I'll be posting 400 of my 700 but the SB will post 2 of his 3. He has to call a raise and we'll probably play 3 way on the next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but some of those times you won't have to fold, depending on level here, I think, because the big stack will sometimes check it down from here, no?

[jcm4ccc]

I like it a lot. It seems to increase your options under certain conditions without any risk. Please tell me if I am misunderstanding anything.

The reason to go all-in instead of min-raise is to increase your chances of a fold. In this instance, I don't think going all-in increases your chance of a fold at all. The Big Stack and SB will call an 800 bet as easily as they will call a 1500 bet. And you are already putting the BB all-in, basically. So where's the benefit of going all-in?

One benefit to this play, I think, is making the BBs decision harder. For example, let's assume the BB actually has a good hand. You min-raise, the big stack raises it. Now what is the BB to do?

If you had gone all-in, the BB would have the information that you are committed to this pot. As it is, though, the BB doesn't know what you will do if he calls this bet. You could conceivably fold and let the BB and Big Stack duke it out. So his decision is a bit harder than it would have been. He has less information.

[two_dogs]

[ QUOTE ]
The big stack to my left with 4K is pretty loose; the SB to his left, with 3.5K, is a little bit better but still on the loose side. The BB, with 700 (300 after posting) is the typical loose early/weak late/terrible all the time player.


[/ QUOTE ]
For this reason alone why not let one of these guys take the BB out and you in the money with no risk.
I don't understand why you would want Button or SB coming over the top of you. I realize ATo is pretty good 4 handed but just pretty good.