2nd Pair Hand...

[SparkyDog]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Opponent in this hand is decent and fairly predictable.

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.66 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.66 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10.66 BB

[mr pink]

the bigblind betting out into the entire field usually indicates some kind of hand. why not just call the flop bet getting 10.3 to 1, and try and spike a six or seven? if you miss, fold the turn unimproved.

[SparkyDog]

a lot of cards that will significantly improve my draw but not make a hand can come, and I think raising the flop and semi-bluffing a card that improves my hand and checking behind on blanks will force him off some weak aces (not likely) but get him to fold out higher pocket pairs and hands like KQ. However this time he three-bet.

I just think raising this flop and then playing poker when the turn comes maximizes my chances of winning this hand.

[deadmunny]

IMHO, As soon as he reraises the flop, I am done...He has already shown strength PF and an A has flopped.



Regards D

[Entity]

Raising this flop is pretty bad. You won't throw him off of an Ace that he raised PF, and you'd like to see the turn cheaply.

[ScottTheFish]

What does a decent player raise with in the BB that you are beating on this flop? KQ? That's about it. I doubt he raises a weak ace out of position from the blind, and if he did he aint folding it now.

Don't raise the flop, but since you did, Call the flop 3-bet and fold the turn UI. He's screaming at you you're beat.

[suspicious_mind]

If everyone had folded to you that could be a strong move against some opponents but here you have another player to worry about who is pretty likely to have an ace as well.

[SparkyDog]

I know I'm not ahead on this flop. Villian has either of two hands:

1) Big Ace
2) Pocket Pair

If he has a big ace, then no, I won't throw him off but my 5 outs to 2nd pair are good and I have backdoor draws.

If he has a pocket pair lower than an ace then he may fold the turn, but he'll definitely offer me a free card.

But since he 3-bet it's safe to say that he has an ace. Obviously I'm seeing the turn, and probably the river too if I pick up another draw.

I was thinking this was a fairly standard free card/semi-bluff raise. Guess not.

[SparkyDog]

What about the river?

[mr pink]

you seriously shouldn't gotten past the turn with this one. bluff raising this river is not gonna work often enough to show a profit.

[SparkyDog]

where did I say anything about bluff-raising? I was talking about how I will often want to see the river card also.

10 diamonds give me a flush draw, 6 cards give me an OESD (eight, but two are already counted with the flush) and 6 more give me a gutshot. So 22 cards give me a strong draw to at least 9 outs. My hand really isn't that weak at all on the flop, and I think that the semi-bluffing and free card benefits justify a raise.

[ScottTheFish]

Yeah you have outs, why charge yourself extra to draw? The flop doesn't happen in a vacuum. This is a preflop 3-bettor betting into a field from the BB. You're not getting a free card. Semi-bluffing with backdoor draws against someone who obviously likes their hand is chip spewing IMO.

[mtdoak]

First and foremost....Muck preflop. The pot is small, while you have position, you have a marginal hand. These hands play well against 3-4 limpers. On the flop....muck to the 3 bet. At best you have 6 outs to improve (3 sevens, 2 sixes, and two backdoors), so its a marginal call in a small pot. And finally, with a unimprovement on the turn, muck!!!

[SparkyDog]

[ QUOTE ]
First and foremost....Muck preflop. The pot is small, while you have position, you have a marginal hand. These hands play well against 3-4 limpers. On the flop....muck to the 3 bet. At best you have 6 outs to improve (3 sevens, 2 sixes, and two backdoors), so its a marginal call in a small pot. And finally, with a unimprovement on the turn, muck!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

You would muck getting 13-1 and implied odds?

Besides the terrible flop advice, folding 67s after two idiots limp to me on the button is pretty bad too. The only spot where you really can argue is the turn, which is close but still profitable if I can get in two bets when I hit since a blank fell and I only have my pair outs.

[mr pink]

my bad man, misread the post. i thought you were asking whether raising the river would be good instead of the flop.

[mr pink]

76s is a pretty speculative hand. it needs good implied odds b/c it usually only pays off when it makes a straight or flush. you'd generally like 4 or 5 limpers instead of just 2 because you're gonna have to make up a lot postflop.

[mtdoak]

The flop raise is fine, I would personally muck to a 3 bet....and definatly muck the turn. Your implied odds here aren't that great...your going to collect 3 BB if you hit a 6, 7, or backdoor draw, unless he holds AA, then you might collect 4 BB if you hit a backdoor draw. If this pot is multiway after the flop, espically with a calling station or two thrown in, your implied odds would be much greater.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
76s is a pretty speculative hand. it needs good implied odds b/c it usually only pays off when it makes a straight or flush. you'd generally like 4 or 5 limpers instead of just 2 because you're gonna have to make up a lot postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

76s also makes pairs.

[Nick C]

A number of people have mentioned folding the turn unimproved. Part of the idea behind this advice, I think, is that the pot won't be big enough on the turn (after Hero just calls the flop) to justify a turn call on a blank.

All the same, I would like to point out that in the actual hand, the turn is a fairly easy call, in my opinion. Versus a hand like AK, the turn is a call (barely, I'll admit) even without implied odds. And Hero should have some implied odds here.

We're not that worried about specifically AA, are we?

As for the flop, I don't object to the raise as much as some others have, but I would have called. The raise hopes for one of two things: (1) For BB to lay down a hand like KK-TT. I don't know how likely this is, and even if he might lay down such a hand, there is MP1's flop call to worry about. (2) For BB to slow down, so Hero can draw more cheaply on the turn, if he needs to. This, I think, could happen, especially if BB does in fact have KK-TT. However, he'll have top pair more often, I think, and there is the risk (as actually occurred in the hand) of getting 3-bet on the flop, especially since MP1 is still in the hand. (Heads-up, Hero might sometimes get a free card when BB called the flop raise and whiffed on a turn checkraise, but I think that's less likely with the third player in.)

[mr pink]

ok, good tip.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop raise is fine, I would personally muck to a 3 bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Awful.

You're getting 15-1 and have something like 7-8 outs unless he has exactly AA.

[Lmn55d]

[ QUOTE ]
If he has a pocket pair lower than an ace then he may fold the turn, but he'll definitely offer me a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

MP1 is still in the hand, further lowering the chances of you getting a free card on the turn if villain had TT-KK. I definitely don't like the flop raise. You are behind too often and will be 3bet or not get a free card too often to make this raise good. Call.