First level of a 215..

[morello]

you open raise UTG+1 to 45 w/ AK. Two cold callers, sb fold, BB reraises to 200.

What's your play, and is it close?

You haven't seen the BB or others before.

[ChrisV]

Fold. Normally I like to call reraises with AK, but the raise is pretty big. Pushing doesn't look very appetising.

[rdu $teve]

If this is on Party, he will most likely call you ~600 extra all-in. You've got a coin-flip at best. Wait for a better spot.

If it's on Stars, you've got a little more playing room in your stack, but it's still not worth the trouble this early.

[jcm4ccc]

BB may have done you a favor. Playing AK out of position with 3 callers is not my idea of fun.

If you knew the other two would fold, then I would call. You have position on the BB; however, you don't have position on the two cold callers. I would fold.

Definitely raise more preflop.

[Irieguy]

I don't think this is close. I fold without thinking twice about it. You're beat. You're out of position against two cold-callers who could have anything and do anything.

Also, even at the $215's there's a tendency for the "F-it, let's gamble!" mentality in level one if one of those cold callers has TT or JJ.

As far as JCM's advice to raise more, this hand demonstrates one of the many reasons why you wouldn't want to do that. Why would it be better to fold after raising 70 chips than it is to fold after raising 45 chips? When I have to fold preflop, I prefer to lose fewer chips.

Now, if your plan is to bait somebody to reraise and you plan on pushing, then a bigger raise is fine. But that's clearly not your plan here.

Irieguy

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is close. I fold without thinking twice about it. You're beat. You're out of position against two cold-callers who could have anything and do anything.

Also, even at the $215's there's a tendency for the "F-it, let's gamble!" mentality in level one if one of those cold callers has TT or JJ.

As far as JCM's advice to raise more, this hand demonstrates one of the many reasons why you wouldn't want to do that. Why would it be better to fold after raising 70 chips than it is to fold after raising 45 chips? When I have to fold preflop, I prefer to lose fewer chips.

Now, if your plan is to bait somebody to reraise and you plan on pushing, then a bigger raise is fine. But that's clearly not your plan here.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the point of AK was to get heads up. You're not likely to get heads up with a bet of 45.

Okay, so it's better to fold for 45 chips than for 75 chips. But you didn't know that you would be reraised when you made the original bet. That seems to me to be results-oriented thinking.

[morello]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought the point of AK was to get heads up. You're not likely to get heads up with a bet of 45.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the point is to try and get it heads up.

I can accept an argument that I should raise a little bit more in order to extract max value. I don't think there's a change in the calling standards of players facing a 45 chip raise vs a 60 chip raise, but I think there likely is with a 45v75 chip raise. And ideally I want AJ, KQ,KJ to call my raise. If my preflop raise is too much, they will simply fold. And picking up the blinds at the 10-15 level isn't a big deal.

That's my longwinded way of saying that I don't think a 3x raise is wrong.

[morello]

Obviously calling here is not a realistic option, so it's either push or fold.

I folded and thought it was pretty routine. I talked to a longterm winner at the 215s, and he advocated pushing here, which is why I made the post.

His argument was that my likely equity wasn't much below 50%, and that I will occasionally run into a clown that has AJ or something like that. Also, the BB may have AK or JJ/other and fold to a push.

I guess the concensus is that a fold is correct, though.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]

Okay, so it's better to fold for 45 chips than for 75 chips. But you didn't know that you would be reraised when you made the original bet. That seems to me to be results-oriented thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the many reasons why you shouldn't over-raise with AK is because you are prepared to fold if the action behind you warrants it. That isn't results-oriented thinking, that's forethought.

Of course you don't know you will be re-raised when you make your original raise. But a good player will consider the possibility that it will happen... and have a plan ready in case it does.

Irieguy

[raptor517]

irie is right, fold without thinking.

[Bigwig]

I'd fold.

[curtains]

Yeah in the 215s you generally don't want to play AK for a lot of money early in the event.

[pokerraja]

Would your thought process change if this was a $55 or $33? If your properly bankrolled its all relative, right? That said, I would fold the majority of the time, but im sure there would be moments when I have some gamble in me and I would push.

[J-Lo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Okay, so it's better to fold for 45 chips than for 75 chips. But you didn't know that you would be reraised when you made the original bet. That seems to me to be results-oriented thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the many reasons why you shouldn't over-raise with AK is because you are prepared to fold if the action behind you warrants it. That isn't results-oriented thinking, that's forethought.

Of course you don't know you will be re-raised when you make your original raise. But a good player will consider the possibility that it will happen... and have a plan ready in case it does.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the rule of raising the same amount everytime to not give away the strenthg of your hand?

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Okay, so it's better to fold for 45 chips than for 75 chips. But you didn't know that you would be reraised when you made the original bet. That seems to me to be results-oriented thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the many reasons why you shouldn't over-raise with AK is because you are prepared to fold if the action behind you warrants it. That isn't results-oriented thinking, that's forethought.

Of course you don't know you will be re-raised when you make your original raise. But a good player will consider the possibility that it will happen... and have a plan ready in case it does.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the rule of raising the same amount everytime to not give away the strenthg of your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I already do that. I play Stars. If I am raising, I almost always raise the same amount no matter what:

1st level (blinds 10-20): raise 100
2nd level (blinds 15-30): raise 120
3rd level (blinds 25-50): raise 150

On the first two levels, I am raising with AK, AA, KK, QQ, and JJ. Maybe AQ in late position, if nobody has entered the pot yet. That's about it. I know Irieguy is much better than me, but to limit my raises with these hands because I am afraid of a reraise seems to me to be the wrong way to think about this. I want to be heads up with AK, QQ, and JJ, and will bet the amount of chips that I think will achieve that. If I occasionally have to fold a hand to a big reraise, so be it.

By the way, your duet with Marc Anthony last night sucked. Really. The narcissism was overwhelming.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]

What about the rule of raising the same amount everytime to not give away the strenthg of your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never much liked that rule. If varying your raise amounts "gives away the strength of your hand," that implies that your raise amount gives information. If you are giving information out with your raise amounts, then you can give misleading information if you choose. Or you can manipulate the information to work in your favor. Or, if you believe that your opponents are taking information from your raise amounts, then they will be giving information with their reaction to it. That seems like a fair trade to me. If there's information to be given or gleaned, I'd prefer to be the one in control of the transfer.

Irieguy

[curtains]

This is a very stupid rule to suggest that others follow. However it's okay to follow it if it suits your style.

[ZeeJustin]

Fold, and its not close really. Even if you know youre not up against AA or KK (which you certainly DONT know), its not unreasonable to want to wait for a better spot.

[trevor]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, even at the $215's there's a tendency for the "F-it, let's gamble!" mentality in level one if one of those cold callers has TT or JJ.


[/ QUOTE ]

I laughed so hard when I read this my gut still hurts. I can so picutre playing in a home game and hearing, "F-it, let's gamble!" /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[curtains]

Btw I fold here